Examination of Witnesses (Questions 120
- 139)
TUESDAY 17 OCTOBER 2000
MRS BRIONI
ARMYTAGE, REVEREND
JOHN BOURNE,
MS FRANCOISE
FLETCHER, REVEREND
DAVID ADKINS,
MR RALPH
DELLOW AND
MR MICHAEL
DUFF
120. Reverend Adkins?
(Rev Adkins) I have not had experience of the Prison
Service since the raid but prior to the raid I came here a number
of times. I am an ex-police officer, too. I spent 25 years in
the Metropolitan Police, and I was on the team that arrested the
Kray Twin gang, so I have experience with prisoners and the like.
So to come here was quite a culture shock for me because I had
been in closed prisons where there was an awful atmosphere. To
come here and see the respect there was on both sides, and the
fact they did seem to work together so very clearly, and the governor
was willing to let his men come out to the church and do work,
I was so impressed with these men because they could be trusted.
They had a keen sense of self-discipline, by that time, instilled
in them and they work exceedingly hard. One Christmas we were
hard put to staff a place for the homeless—a homeless shelter.
They totally staffed it for a week and, actually, the money came
out of their own pockets to pay for some of the food—turkeys
and so on. It was not asked for, they actually volunteered. It
was brilliantly done. I have stayed friends with four men, in
particular, who worked so well in the church. They are now out
of prison and they have not re-offended. Some of them are still
working in the church, I am in contact with all of them, and I
am proud to call them friends. They do mix with my family. I think
the work the previous governor did is brilliant.
Mrs Dean
121. Can I turn to Francoise Fletcher and her
colleagues from the education department and ask what changes
there have been, or are planned, to be made in the education department,
with particular reference to the lack of photography now?
(Ms Fletcher) Yes. That is a good question. We do
not know what changes are planned for us. The governor who is
in charge of education at the moment has told me several times
"If it is not working you do not need to mend it". The
governor in charge of security tells me the education programme
is going to be changed totally, and this has been said to me several
times. As a result of it I have absolutely no idea what is planned.
What has changed is that in the past the programme of education
was discussed and negotiated with the head of inmate activities.
Now, the programme is imposed, pretty much as the photography
class was cancelled. The photography class was cancelled on the
Friday. I was told "This class is closed. There is no discussion."
The previous Monday—the Monday of the same week—the
Governor, Mr Bartlett, had asked me to explain what the photography
class was about, how the accreditation was gained and how we were
keeping track of the cameras, and so on. I explained it all to
him. I brought one of the booklets that the men have, because
this class is accredited, and, in fact, I was told on the same
day "This is fine, there is no problem". On Friday I
am told "Close it". No discussion. Since then I have
been told "It has gone. Do not even talk about it".
Now this is a class where, this year, men were accredited not
only at level 1 but up to level 3. We have had, in the past, a
number of men who have discovered photography here and gone on
to higher education and finding jobs involving photography and
doing degrees. We also, as was mentioned before, were represented
at the Koestler Awards. I went to the awards this year and there
was a photography section. I questioned the reasons why the class
was closed. I was told the class was closed for security reasons.
Reasonable alternatives, in my mind, were offered. For example,
the photography tutor would dedicate the first hour of each of
his sessions to going round taking pictures and then coming back,
the cameras would be taken away from the men and, therefore, nobody
would have a camera in-hand, or if, because of the nature of the
work required, (at times they have to take pictures early in the
morning, or late at night, or different times of the day), I would
have gone with the men and the cameras would never have been out
of my sight, and then taken away again from the men. This I was
told "No discussion. The class is closed. There is no negotiation".
122. What you are saying is that other prisons
have photography classes?
(Ms Fletcher) Yes. Not many, I gather.
(Mr Duff) Wandsworth.
(Ms Fletcher) Wandsworth has a class. Certainly, photography
was represented at the Koestler Awards, so there are photography
classes at other establishments.
(Mr Duff) We have won the Koestler Awards practically
every year—in fact, every year. We also had a student who
won a national competition, and I took him up to London to present
him with his prize—all those kinds of achievements. What
puzzles me is that I ran the photography class for seven years
and there was never a problem with security. The rules were tightened
up at one point because worries were expressed about security,
but we made that work and, as Francoise has said, we were quite
willing to tighten up even more, if necessary.
Chairman
123. Mr Duff, did any of these classes lead
to jobs where people used photography, or was it for other reasons?
(Mr Duff) Yes. One chap is working, I believe, for
the national press now. We had a chap who went to Greenwich to
do media studies at degree level. Various people have used photography
to enhance other work as well. So it kind of spreads out. Also,
we found that people came into photography because they found
it a friendly subject, if you like; it was not a subject they
felt intimidated by and, very often, because you get to know people
and you discuss things with them, people would go on to do other
subjects they might not have felt able to do. In that sense it
was very positive. It seems to me that no—what I would call—proper
reason has been given for closing the class.
Mrs Dean
124. Going back, are there problems with other
subjects? Do you foresee changes in the way you are able to teach
other subjects in the future?
(Ms Fletcher) Yes, I do foresee problems. One of the
problems is that the Home Office only monitors results in literacy
and numeracy. None of the other subjects, although they are accredited
by Blantyre, are seen as having educational value, and I have
been told that the wide range of classes that we run—ie,
art, pottery, woodwork, decorative painting techniques and languages—are
all seen as recreational classes with no educational value.
125. Can I ask you by whom you have been told
that?
(Ms Fletcher) By one of the governors.
Mr Malins
126. Just arising out the education issue, Ms
Fletcher, I think all of us would agree that education is an absolutely
vital aspect for all prisons, in that qualities of hope and enthusiasm
are essential qualities in prison staff. With that backcloth,
has it ever been said to you about Blantyre prisoners that "these
men are all beyond redemption"?
(Ms Fletcher) Yes, it has.
127. Who said that?
(Ms Fletcher) Mr Murtagh.
128. The Area Manager?
(Ms Fletcher) Yes.
Mr Winnick
129. Can you tell us when he said that?
(Ms Fletcher) He said that on 5 July.
130. In what context? It seems odd that suddenly,
out of nowhere, he should make such a comment.
(Ms Fletcher) We had, on that day, a visit from Mr
Paul Boateng.
Chairman
131. The Minister of State at the Home Office.
(Ms Fletcher) Mr Boateng spent quite a long time in
education. Also, his visit took place after the classes had finished.
Therefore, he did not have a chance to see the students or to
see classes in action. But he did spend a lot of time in education
and was very interested in the fact that the education department
at Blantyre is unique and offers a lot more classes than normal
education departments would in a normal prison. Mr Boateng came
to visit and when he came around the department he had Mr Bartlett,
Mr Spratling and Mr Murtagh with him. After he had gone I was
called to Mr Bartlett's office and Mr Murtagh was there. He wanted
to discuss the visit, and I actually brought up the photography
class again, as I did not want to give that one up very easily,
and my other concerns about the education department. I brought
up—with the photography class in mind—the subject
of trust and the men. He told me that they were not to be trusted
because they were all beyond redemption.
Mr Winnick
132. What is your view?
(Ms Fletcher) I disagree strongly with this.
133. Did you tell him that?
(Ms Fletcher) Yes, I did.
134. Or was it difficult to do so?
(Ms Fletcher) I did tell him that and we disagreed.
Because I have not got a prison background and because I have
only been in this employment for a short while, I was told I was
naive.
135. Were you shocked that someone in such a
senior position in the Prison Service should make what many believe
to be a somewhat outrageous remark?
(Ms Fletcher) I was, particularly as when I first
came to Blantyre (I live locally and I had heard of Blantyre)
I did not quite believe that this regime was as good as it was.
It was very simple, and the simple rules were: no alcohol, no
drugs, no violence, and the men were given trust and they were
given respect. There was a very strong message coming from the
Governor, and our Head of inmate activities who was responsible
for education. It answered all my beliefs on how people should
be treated. I felt, at the end of a sentence, this is how men
should be treated; respect given and trust given was being paid
back ten-fold.
136. What would you say, Ms Fletcher, if it
was said that the person who made the remark has had many, many
years of experience in the Prison Service; you have not, you might
be naive and he understands human nature better? What would be
your response to that, with your experience at this institution?
(Ms Fletcher) With my experience at this institution
I would say that he was wrong because, yes, perhaps this is the
view of somebody who has seen other prisons, but Blantyre is unique,
and the ethos at Blantyre was unique. I would say that it is the
view of somebody who fails to understand what the ethos was here
and, also, who fails really to understand human nature.
Mr Stinchcombe
137. Mr Duff, what kind of facilities did you
have, or do you have at the moment, in Blantyre to run your photography
class?
(Mr Duff) I had better give you the history of it.
It started off as an activity day or during activity week, where
people are brought in to teach subjects that are not normally
provided here to stimulate interest in things. Anyway, I came
in to do a day on photography and it was so well-received that
I was contacted by the education manager and asked to come in
one day a week to do this as a subject. At first it was not accredited,
it was more like a camera club, and then after a couple of years
I wrote a programme and had it accredited at the Open College
Network at three levels. In the early days we used to use a room
that was also used for decorative paints and before I started
class we had to blank all the windows off, and it was very tedious.
We did that for years and years and years, and then in the last
couple of years I finally got a room. It is very, very small (it
is a little dark room, about 8 feet by 3 feet) with an enlarger
in it, and then a little tiny room next to that where I keep all
the paperwork.
138. So two rooms?
(Mr Duff) Yes, two very small rooms.
139. What did those rooms look like after the
raid?
(Mr Duff) There is a little cupboard in the dark room,
and the door of that was literally ripped open and the lock broken.
In that I had work that was waiting for verification—several
level 3 folders and quite a few level ones. They were thrown all
over the floor.
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