Examination of Witnesses (Questions 140
- 152)
TUESDAY 17 OCTOBER 2000
MRS BRIONI
ARMYTAGE, REVEREND
JOHN BOURNE,
MS FRANCOISE
FLETCHER, REVEREND
DAVID ADKINS,
MR RALPH
DELLOW AND
MR MICHAEL
DUFF
140. Level 3 is equivalent to what level?
(Mr Duff) A level.
141. A level. Thrown on the floor?
(Mr Duff) They were thrown on the floor, and they
seemed to have been trodden on as well, which added insult to
injury. I was completely appalled, and could not believe it.
142. Thank you. Reverend Bourne, what was the
Chaplaincy like? How was that affected by the raid?
(Rev Bourne) The chapel has two offices, the Roman
Catholic Priest's office and my office, which were locked offices,
and both doors had been broken down. My door was taken apart at
the frame, and part of the wall and rubble and the doors left
all over the floor. The drawers had been searched quite tidily
and some money removed. In another room there was a locked, 4-feet-high
cupboard that I have never had a key to, but that remained untouched.
It seemed a rather strange search.
Chairman: It is not Joanna Southwood's box,
is it?
Mr Stinchcombe
143. Was there any need to break the door in
that manner?
(Rev Bourne) The keys to the chapel are kept, as they
always are, in the gatehouse. I had been in the prison that day
and left at 5 o'clock, after all the unfortunate events regarding
the removal of the two governor grades, and I had replaced my
keys so that they were there available for anyone who wanted them
in the night.
144. So you left your keys at the gatehouse?
(Rev Bourne) I left my keys at the gatehouse.
(Mrs Armytage) I picked them up on the Sunday, so
there is no question of John having taken them home. They were
in the pigeon-hole. I came in on the Saturday but I did not need
the keys because the chapel door was locked on the outside and
the two office doors were broken down. So I did not need the keys.
Two officers escorted me down. On the Sunday I got there first
and collected the keys as normal for the office. One door was
padlocked and there was no key for that, because it had been completely
broken down, and I had the key for the other office. So John left
them on Friday and I picked them up on Sunday.
Mr Howarth
145. Can I ask if there has been any explanation
given to either the Chaplaincy or to you, Mr Duff, for what has
happened, or whether you have, perhaps, had an apology?
(Reverend Bourne) No.
(Mr Duff) No, none whatsoever. Incidentally, there
was a key for the photography cupboard in the photography room,
and it is well-labelled; it is actually labelled "Photography
keys, cupboard".
146. It was unjustified. Would it come as a
surprise to you if I said that in answer to my questions to Mr
Murtagh this morning, the Area Manager, he said he did not know
anything about the photography—
(Mr Duff) I do not believe that. I do not believe
that.
Chairman: We found it difficult, I have to say,
when you consider what he said to us.
Mr Cawsey
147. In the education department's written submission
to us it says that the new regime has put more paperwork and more
bureaucracy into the whole process of justifying students attending
college courses or work experience placements. Do you know why
that has been put into place? What has it been designed to achieve,
and what has been the practical impact of the change?
(Ms Fletcher) I think part of the reason why we need
so much paperwork is that the students need to ask permission
to go out to college or to go to work on work experience. The
previous governor knew each student very well and they would have
taken Mr Dellow's and my opinion as read that if we recommended
a student to go to college we had actually discussed it and we
had ascertained that this course was suitable, that the student
was going to complete it and there was going to be a job at the
end of this course. The problem now is that because we do not
have such a strong presence around the prison and that the Governor
does not know the men, he needs to have things put on paper. We
do have requests, such as "why does this man need to go on
work experience? Does his college course specify that he needs
to go on work experience? Could we have a letter from the college?
Could we have a letter confirming from you? Could we have the
course contents specified?" More and more we need more and
more paperwork which takes longer because if you have to get in
touch with the college to ask "could you please write a letter
to say that, yes, Mr Joe Bloggs needs to go on work experience",
often men miss their work experience because companies are not
going to wait for them. I do not know whether it is a delaying
tactic. I have got no idea why it is done, but maybe it is because
the men are not known.
148. Previously would that basically have been
your decision, if you thought work experience was necessary for
the course that would just have happened?
(Ms Fletcher) I would have sent a memo to the governor
explaining it and that would have been it.
Chairman
149. You would have been trusted to make that
judgment.
(Ms Fletcher) Yes.
Mr Cawsey
150. Yes, that is the point I am putting to
you. I want to ask the question I have asked everybody today.
Basically since 5 May do you collectively or individually feel
that the atmosphere of trust and morale of Blantyre House has
suffered?
(Ms Fletcher) It has greatly, yes, individually, and
I think I can say collectively. My staff are feeling very insecure.
After the incident of the photography class everybody is feeling
threatened.
Mr Cawsey: Thank you.
Chairman
151. If I had to ask you—I am tempted
to call you Mme Fletcher—and the chaplaincy on a scale of
pessimism or optimism, what in a sentence do you make of what
is likely to happen here now?
(Ms Fletcher) It is very hard to feel optimistic.
(Rev Bourne) I think Christians have always cause
to be optimistic. I do not agree that there is irreparable damage,
the thing can be rebuilt but it needs goodwill, it needs trust
and it needs the air clearing, which I hope this inquiry will
do, so the prison can go on. It needs a proper balance between
security and trust and that is the big issue that the Prison Service
is wrestling with and is so frightened of making a mistake.
(Mrs Armytage) We do feel very concerned. Certainly
I come in about ten hours on average every week and at other times
as well and everybody is concerned, the staff and me. The only
good thing that I saw on 6 May when I came in was the rapport
between our Blantyre staff and the men, that was terrific. Since
then everything has seemed to go downhill and we do feel very
concerned.
Chairman: We do hope that, apart from anything
else, the fact that we are holding this inquiry will make a contribution,
as the Reverend Bourne said.
Mr Howarth
152. Following on from that, who do you think
has it within their power to put it right? Can it be put right
by existing management here within the prison or must it be a
recognition by the Prison Service centrally and nationally that
they have done damage to something that was working well?
(Mrs Armytage) I am certainly not an expert on that,
but to run a place like this must be a very, very difficult job,
very difficult indeed. Okay, in a closed prison you have got all
your rules and regulations but somewhere like Blantyre is unique
and it is pioneering and you need a leader. If you have got a
good leader the troops will follow. This is the difference. This
is what happened. We had the leader and the troops followed. There
was a trust but this is what is falling apart now and it will
take an awful lot of building up and a lot of prayer to get this
back as a proper running concern.
(Ms Fletcher) We are willing to give the governors
all our support but it is very difficult when we do not seem to
have a plan ahead, a clear vision of where they want to take the
prison.
Chairman: Thank you, again, all of you very
much. We are seeing Mr Narey tomorrow as well as the Minister
and I should also tell you that we have made a request to see
Mr Murtagh and Mr Podmore, who was in charge of what we will describe
as the raiding party. Thank you very much indeed for your help.
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