Examination of Witnesses (Questions 280
- 283)
WEDNESDAY 18 OCTOBER 2000
SIR DAVID
RAMSBOTHAM, MR
COLIN ALLEN
AND MR
GEOFFREY HUGHES
280. To put this another way, you are Her Majesty's
Inspector of Prisons, if the word "Service" was added
at the end, it would introduce that distance and independence
into inquiries of this kind?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) Yes.
281. I think I have to make the comment that
we have read through the Prison Service report into the raid and
it is supremely unsurprising because it finds grounds to justify
it, and it would, wouldn't it. The Prison Service, in my view,
does not do itself any favours.
(Sir David Ramsbotham) No, I do not think it does.
This is, I think, something for the Director General and Ministers
to consider. My terms of reference would actually have allowed
me to be invited to do this inquiry.
Mr Howarth
282. That is quite an important point, Chairman.
Sir David, are you saying under your existing remit it would have
been perfectly permissible for the Prison Service to have said,
"We have a problem here, we would like you to come in and
do the independent investigation"?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) It would have
to come from Ministers because my remit actually says that I may
investigate any other matters which the Home Secretary may require
me to look into. Therefore if there was the sort of controversy
that there was over this, involving fairly senior management in
the Prison Service, which therefore makes it difficult for the
Prison Service itself to resolve, because if you look at who did
the inquiry they are either subordinates or equals of the person
being investigated, the Director General could have said to the
Home Secretary, "I have a problem with this, don't you think
it would be sensible if we got the Chief Inspector or someone
to come and have a look at this objectively and give you an objective
report?" This, in fact, happened in the past—I think
I am right in saying—after the disturbances at Wymott when
my predecessor was asked to do just this.
Chairman
283. We were told yesterday by Mr Murtagh, the
Area Manager, in response to some questions that staff numbers
at Blantyre House were not an issue and it was his view that it
was the quality of the decisions which McLennan-Murray was making
that was really the issue between them. Can you confirm that Mr
McLennan-Murray at one stage made a request of the Area Manager
for a management consultancy service examination of staff because
of his concern he had not got the staff he needed to do everything
he felt needed to be done, and that Mr Murtagh turned this down?
(Sir David Ramsbotham) Yes, I have heard that. Mr
McLennan- Murray was quite reasonably saying, "If you want
me to impose the extra degree of security which you do because
of you looking at me in this Cat C light, I have not got the staff
to do it, therefore please will you let me have a management consultant
to come and advise me on how to do it." I am told that the
Area Manager said no and he would have to do it himself, but that
subsequently extra resources have been provided, after Mr McLennan-Murray
had left.
Chairman: Thank you very much, Sir David and
your colleagues. We have kept you a little later than intended
because it is obviously a matter of some great concern to us.
We are most grateful to you for your time.
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