Examination of Witnesses (Questions 284
- 299)
WEDNESDAY 18 OCTOBER 2000
MR MIKE
NEWELL, MR
DAVID RODDAN
AND MR
EOIN MCLENNAN-MURRAY
Chairman
284. Good morning, thank you for coming to help
us with our inquiry. We are especially pleased to see you, Mr
McLennan-Murray.
(Mr McLennan-Murray) Thank you.
285. As you know, we were at Blantyre House
yesterday. I do not want to cause you the slightest bit of embarrassment
but you have one or two friends left there. I may say, in some
extraordinary way, the rapport between staff and prisoners there
was demonstrable, you could feel it, so we thank you again. Can
you help, Mr Newell? Whose authority is required to carry out
a search on the scale of the one which was carried out at Blantyre
House?
(Mr Newell) It is a very difficult question.
286. How many fingers in the pie?
(Mr Newell) The normal process would be that something
of that magnitude would be discussed with the governor of the
establishment, plans would be put in preparation and, as was said
by Sir David, would actually tend to be commanded from the centre.
287. When you say "on that scale",
do you mean by that a full search of the prison?
(Mr Newell) Yes. Quite simply because in normal circumstances,
if I was carrying out a search of my own prison, if I could do
it within my existing resources, it would be within my power;
if I required assistance in terms of resources, then obviously
they would be authorised from Area and HQ, and that would be dependent
on the level of threat and intelligence.
288. Just come down a peg, as it were. What
kind of searches need to be authorised by anyone other than the
governor?
(Mr Newell) The sorts of searches are the sort where
we would report any intelligence which was of a significant nature.
Say, for example, if there were rumours there may be firearms
within the prison, then the level of that search—the resources
which required additional arms and explosives dogs—would
be such that that authority would all come from headquarters,
but it would come as part of an intelligence reporting process.
289. What scope in that process is there for
concerns to be expressed about what is being planned; a search
of this scope, the kind of raid which took place on Blantyre House?
(Mr Newell) The difficulty about this search is that
this is, in my experience, and this goes back 26 years, unique.
We do not do these sort of searches without discussion with the
governor. That was from our point of view one of the features
about this particular incident.
290. Forgive me, but you are not buying the
explanation that it was almost a coincidence, an accident, that
the Governor was transferred on promotion from being governor
to a deputy governor—some promotion—that was quite
accidental and then, hey presto!, the new man arrives and quite
out of the blue he says, "I want a full search of this place"?
You are being a bit sceptical about that, are you not?
(Mr Newell) I am just not buying that it is even practical
to have done it that way. I think it is open knowledge that the
planning for that search went on for several days prior to the
actual search.
291. How are governors appointed? Does a notice
go on a board or in a house magazine? How is it advertised? Or
does the fickle finger of fate tap you on the shoulder?
(Mr Newell) Perhaps increasingly it does, but the
usual procedure is that if anybody is moving on for career reasons
there are discussions about that, the future posting is sorted
out, the particular post would then be advertised through the
Prison Service internal vacancy system, suitable candidates would
be interviewed, an appointment made and that would be announced.
The governor would obviously be announcing within the establishment
that process as well.
292. Do you happen to know when Mr Bartlett
was appointed to that job as Governor to Blantyre House? I have
a date, I think, of 3rd May.
(Mr Newell) I am not aware of the exact date that
individual was told they were taking over Blantyre House. We believe
from the planning of the raid that a few days before the new Governor
was involved in that process, was clearly aware they were going
to be the new Governor, and I think that is made clear in the
search report done by the Prison Service.
293. There is some confusion about this. I think
from memory Mr Murtagh said it was decided, because of the severity
and concern over the intelligence which the Chaucer team had got,
that a decision to mount the raid was taken—I think he said—on
28th April and it was going to be carried out as soon as possible
but with them saying the Friday night was the best time to do
it because they wanted to do it when everybody who should have
been in the prison was in the prison. So certain senior people
in the Prison Service knew what was going on. Can you think of
an explanation as to why the new Governor, Mr Bartlett, felt it
necessary then to sign a piece of paper saying he wanted the prison
searched from top to bottom?
(Mr Newell) No. I simply cannot explain any of the
events, based on my experience of the service, in that week.
294. If you put it in the context, as we were
discussing earlier, where it would normally be expected that the
governing governor would be informed that such a search, a raid,
was going to be mounted?
(Mr Newell) More than "informed". The governing
governor would be the leading player in that process.
295. Yes, so this confusion, if confusion it
be, between April 28th and the arrival of the new Governor, the
appointment of the new Governor, on 3rd May, in those circumstances
would not have arisen, would it?
(Mr Newell) No.
296. Are you aware of a raid on such a scale
involving 84 officers, all of whom apparently drove there in their
own motorcars, arriving there mid-evening and staying until 5
or 6 in the morning, on any other Cat C prison in the estate?
(Mr Newell) I find it difficult to remember a raid
of this type and certainly I cannot think of anywhere, as I say,
it was done without the knowledge of—well, I will rephrase
that—where the previous governor or the governor had been
removed the day before and was done with the knowledge of the
new governor in the way of this raid. I certainly cannot remember
anything co-ordinated outside Prison Service headquarters of that
magnitude. That is what seems very unusual to me.
297. Is it not the case that a former Home Secretary,
Sir Kenneth Baker, made quite clear that the governing governor
of an institution, where there were anxieties or suspicions, would
be informed of those?
(Mr Newell) Yes.
298. Except, as we were saying earlier, where
the circumstances were the allegations were specific to you.
(Mr Newell) Exactly. The position is that our own
security manual makes it quite clear that it is the duty of any
member of staff to report intelligence to the governor. That extends
simply because of the interpretation following the Brixton escapes
where, I am sure you were aware, there was a covert operation
going on in relation to IRA prisoners, where things were happening
in the prison of which the governor was not aware. Following that
investigation, which was carried out by Judge Tumin, it was made
clear by Kenneth Baker that there would be no further situations
where governors would not be aware of what was happening within
their prison, for the obvious dangers and risks and, as you know,
in that particular escape people were injured.
Chairman: Yes. Thank you.
Mrs Dean
299. Can I turn to security concerns before
the search took place on May 5th? We have heard a lot about the
impact different categories, the Category C prison and the fact
of it being a resettlement prison, have on the workings and the
balance between, if you like, security and risk, which has been
mentioned earlier. Do you believe the present security classification
of Blantyre House is appropriate in the light of that specialist
resettlement function?
(Mr Newell) I think we have argued for a long time
that to call resettlement prisons Category C prisons is a misnomer.
There was a review of the Prison Service Open Estate, including
the resettlement estate, in 1996 following Learmont Report Recommendation
63, which required a review of the use of the open estate. In
that report the issue of resettlement was raised in some detail
and the problems of regarding them as Category C and regarding
them in escape statistics, because if they were technically regarded
in escape statistics in the period where we were attempting to
reduce escapes there was obviously a major risk of that battle
against a resettlement ethos. That report was never acted upon
but nevertheless that report is in existence.
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