Examination of Witnesses (Questions 380
- 399)
WEDNESDAY 18 OCTOBER 2000
MR MARK
HEALY AND
MR TOM
ROBSON
Mr Stinchcombe
380. Would you have expected them to be told
what they were looking for and where to look for it?
(Mr Healy) We would, yes.
381. Have you heard that they were told that
the prison was awash with drugs and the prisoners were in control
of it, which is what we have heard? (Mr Healy) I have heard
that phraseology, yes.
382. You have heard exactly that phraseology?
(Mr Healy) Exactly that phraseology.
383. That was from officers who conducted the
search?
(Mr Healy) I have that phraseology written in front
of me.
(Mr Robson) My understanding was that it appeared
in the local press, but who was attributed to the quote, I am
not certain, but it is a pretty common phraseology being used
at the moment. I do not know the source.
384. If you had received a briefing that a prison
was awash with drugs would you have expected all of the prison
to have been searched, including locked draws and locked cupboards?
(Mr Healy) Sorry?
385. If there is a briefing that the prison
is awash with drugs would you expect the search to be comprehensive,
all locked draws and locked cupboards to be searched?
(Mr Healy) Yes.
386. Does it surprise you that, for example,
in the Chaplain's office, although that door was smashed in when
keys were available, one cupboard was not opened at all?
(Mr Healy) Does that surprise me? Yes.
387. Does it surprise you that the health area
where, as I understand it, medication is available, was smashed
open and left unsecured, given the nature of this particular establishment?
(Mr Healy) Yes it does.
388. Does that occur because of the instructions
given to the officers, or does that occur because the officers
are not doing their job professionally?
(Mr Healy) My understanding of what took place at
Blantyre that night was that the officers who carried out the
raid carried out the instructions and the orders that they were
given to do. I am unaware that there has been any adverse comment
by senior managers in the Prison Service about the conduct of
people who carried out the raid. That is not saying that I agree
with the way all of this went, but nevertheless I am answering
the point that I am not aware that anybody said, "You did
a bad job", or "You did not do what you were told to
do at that particular time." My understanding is they were
told to do a job and they did a job.
389. Have you heard that certain comments were
written on the blackboard in the gym by the people undertaking
the raid?
(Mr Robson) No.
(Mr Healy) No.
Chairman
390. Can you help me, please? Do all prison
officers automatically get training in how to carry out this type
of search?
(Mr Healy) Prison officers are trained in control
and restraint techniques. Some prison officers specialise in certain
other areas. Basic searching, the answer is yes, the prison officers
are trained to search.
391. Is it usual for 84 officers, in this case,
to be asked to pile into their own motors and go cross country
in order to carry out this raid? Is that the way these things
normally happen?
(Mr Healy) Normally when these types of things happen
there is an emergency going on. Normally when these types of events
take place it is normally a riot, as I said earlier on, and people
have to move very quickly and get to wherever they have to be
as quickly as they can. If that does mean that people have to
use their own transport to assemble somewhere, then that has happened
in the past.
392. That was not the circumstance here?
(Mr Healy) I prefixed it with "normally".
Normally people move, in these circumstances, because there is
a riot or a prison is burning, or something is imminent or lives
are in danger.
Mr Winnick
393. If such a search in the way in which it
was conducted on 5th and 6th May had been in some other prison,
would you have expected a different reaction from inmates?
(Mr Robson) I would suggest to you that if it had
been some other prison, a secure establishment, the search would
have been pre-planned and the search would have been carried out
by the establishment's own staff. The prison would have been locked-down
and the staff would have been briefed and they would have searched
their own establishment. There might have been some specialists
brought in for whatever reason, but experience tells me that in
general it is the prison's own staff that conduct a search of
that nature.
394. It has been suggested to us, not in evidence
as such, that perhaps—and this is a rather cynical view
and there may be no justification for it—that in order to
try and prove a particular point of those who authorised the search
they may not necessarily have taken the view that a riot would
be deplorable and simply confirmed their view that things at the
prison were not as they should be?
(Mr Robson) I personally would not subscribe to that
view. We are at a disadvantage here because we are not in possession
of the information that tells us what the problem was, what they
were looking for, and we are not really certain if anything or
what was found. We would have that disadvantage.
Mr Malins
395. Of course neither of you were involved
in any way in the raid, you were not there for the briefing, and
I understand, Mr Healy and Mr Robson, that you are both telling
us that the briefing made it clear, or indicated, that the prisoners
were in control of the jail and it was awash with drugs. That
is what you understand the briefing to be saying?
(Mr Healy) That phraseology has been used to us, as
we told you.
396. Let me press you. That must have been told
to you by somebody who was at the briefing?
(Mr Healy) It has been fed back to us. I cannot give
names and dates.
397. I do not ask you to.
(Mr Healy) Not because I do not want to. I do not
know.
398. Who gave the briefing?
(Mr Healy) I can only guess.
(Mr Robson) There is one thing I could comment on
that. In normal circumstances if a prison was awash with drugs
and inmates were in control there would be an alarm signal sent
to us, the Union headquarters, by our members at the establishment.
All I can say is that there were no such alarms raised by the
people who worked in Blantyre House Prison.
399. Do you know who gave the briefing?
(Mr Robson) No, I do not.
| 
