Examination of Witnesses (Questions 400
- 419)
WEDNESDAY 18 OCTOBER 2000
MR MARK
HEALY AND
MR TOM
ROBSON
400. You do understand, you are clear to us,
that word has reached you that at that briefing it was said to
those who were going to carry out the operation that the prison
was awash with drugs and the prisoners were in control?
(Mr Healy) Those are the words that have come back
to us.
Mr Linton
401. Could I just use your experience of the
Prison Service to clarify in our minds exactly what would happen
in different circumstances? What I want to know is: if there is
security intelligence in the hands of the Prison Service that
there are drugs in a prison, or that there is contraband in a
prison, what would normally the next step be? If the police gave
information or if there was information within the Prison Service
of drugs at a prison what would normally be the first step taken?
(Mr Healy) I think my colleague has already identified
that. The normal circumstance in a prison is that there would
be a total lock-down. Every prisoner would be put behind their
cell doors and there would be a methodical search of the prison.
402. Conducted by?
(Mr Healy) There may be circumstances when you are
dealing with a relatively small establishment—and Blantyre
House certainly comes into that category—where you would
need outside assistance to do a thorough search. That is fair
enough and that is right and proper. So a governor may have to
go to another establishment, or via the area manager or whatever,
and say, "I need assistance. Could you send me staff so that
I can carry out this particular duty?"
403. What kind of intelligence would justify
the Prison Service not telling the governor of the prison concerned?
(Mr Healy) Well, I still believe, even though we are
months down the line, that there is still information that I am
not privy to about all of this. I absolutely think that, even
this afternoon. It would lead me to believe that there is a problem
with the governor, as it would anybody else, and it would lead
me to believe that those in authority, through the chain of command,
did not have confidence in the governor. That is the only reason
I can think of why they would not pass on the information to the
governor that they intended to do something, so the governor could
possibly do something in the meantime before the raid took place.
I do not know. That is all speculation on my part. I still think
there is something that probably you do not know and I do not
know.
Chairman
404. It is the case that none of your members
at Blantyre House made any such allegations about Mr McLennan-Murray?
(Mr Healy) That is entirely right. No allegations
have been made to the trade union.
Mr Linton
405. We are at the same disadvantage as you,
Mr Healy, in that there may be information that we do not have,
we accept that, and this information could conceivably shed a
different light on it. I am trying to follow the possible sequence
of events through to see whether this information could in any
circumstances have justified the sequence of events. In other
words, are there some kinds of intelligence about what the prisoners
are doing that would ever justify not telling the governor of
that prison?
(Mr Healy) In my view, no, unless there are suspicions
about the ability of the governor, I suppose.
406. In other words, the sequence of events
that the governor was replaced and then a search immediately conducted
would imply that the target of the search is really the governor
rather than the prisoners?
(Mr Healy) I think that it could possibly imply both,
but it is certainly unusual not to inform the governor in my experience.
407. Well, it would imply that they did not
trust the governor to conduct the search himself?
(Mr Healy) That is what you said and I said a few
moment ago—I am only speculating—that could lead you
to that conclusion, yes.
Mrs Dean
408. Can I clarify something? Are you saying
that the expression "prisoners were in control of the prison"
should be interpreted as being that was happening physically,
there was some sort of riot situation, by any who were being briefed,
or was it interpreted as we think it was meant?
(Mr Healy) I do not know. I would interpret that,
if I was sitting somewhere half an hour before I was going into
a prison to do a raid, that it could possibly lead me to believe
that they were running the prison, as you have just said, but
I do not know in what context it was put.
409. From your point of view you believe some
of your members interpreted that it was that they were physically
in control?
(Mr Healy) I do not know. I know that phrase was used,
but I do not know.
Mr Howarth
410. Gentlemen, you said earlier that it was
most unusual for an outside force to be brought in. Would you
say that it was unprecedented in circumstances where no riot existed?
(Mr Robson) To qualify that, I said that it would
be unusual for an outside team to come in to do a drugs search,
which was the question I was being asked at the time. It is certainly
not unusual in the circumstances my colleague mentioned, that
the governor would seek some assistance, physically, to be able
to do the search. So, the circumstance from that perspective is
unusual if you are referring merely to drugs.
411. What about your members who are employed
at Blantyre House, what representations have they made to you
since the raid? Were they aware of it in advance? They were completely
unaware, I can see Mr Healy indicating.
(Mr Healy) They were completely unaware. They made
representations through Mr Robson, who is the area rep, they made
representations to him. I know they spoke briefly to the Director
General at our annual conference this year. I know that they have
supplied documentation to this Committee as well. Mr Robson was
in there as recently as yesterday, as indeed some of your Committee
were, I understand, and morale is pretty bad I think it is fair
to say.
(Mr Robson) It had been quoted to myself by the staff
at Blantyre House, who no doubt have worked very hard to make
Blantyre House work, carrying out the instructions of the day,
if you like—it has been put to me that their prison was
taken from them.
412. It was taken from them?
(Mr Robson) Yes, because they were not in control
at all of the situation that was taking place.
Chairman
413. By whom?
(Mr Robson) Taken from them by the teams that came
in that night, because the Blantyre House staff themselves had
no involvement. They now obviously have to go back and pick up
the pieces and I think they deserve some praise for being able
to do that at Blantyre House.
Mr Howarth
414. Blantyre House is rather an exceptional
institution in Prison Service terms. How is it regarded by other
prison officers around the country? Is it regarded as being a
rather special place? Is it regarded, perhaps, as being a soft
option for prison officers? How is it regarded generally by your
members?
(Mr Healy) It is not at the top of the list of talking
points to be perfectly honest. I am not being flippant in my answer.
There are other institutions around the country that are not dissimilar
in what they do, Kirklevington being one in the North, and Latchmere
in London is the another. No, it is not a soft option. Certainly,
as far as the union is concerned, it plays a vital role within
the whole estate. There are some places that, for good reason,
have to apply a harsher regime and others that have to be in a
position to ensure that those who are about to go back into the
community are equipped to do so, and Blantyre does that.
415. So the philosophy at Blantyre that has
been followed since its opening in 1987 to 5th May this year has
been very much supported by the Prison Officers Association?
(Mr Healy) Apart from the bad press that the POA gets,
what we actually do is what we are told most of the time, and
regimes within prisons actually are invariably dictated by this
House. Sometimes we have a harsh approach and sometimes a softer
approach and our members have to adapt to the ethos at the particular
time. So we are used to swaying backwards and forwards on how
we deliver the service we have to deliver. Certainly there is
no thought process within the trade union that I represent that
prisoners get a soft option at Blantyre or whatever. The people
at Blantyre do a good job and I think the results speak for themselves
actually.
416. Do you think there is a element of Rambo
in this raid, the sort of SAS type planning and moving off in
convoys, mustering and deploying and all sort of military?
(Mr Healy) I think, as I and my colleague have already
said, we find the circumstances unusual and we are hoping that
by the end of the day there might be some more clarity to it.
Mr Cawsey
417. Mr Healy, you said that at the time of
the raid your members were telling you that it had a bad effect
and morale was bad, and that is understandable given all that
was happening at that time, but here we are nearly six months
down the line from that point, what is the judgment of you now
on your members' feelings for those who work at Blantyre House?
(Mr Healy) Can I ask Mr Robson to answer that, because
he was there yesterday?
(Mr Robson) I was there yesterday and I think that
the only thing that will put things back together again is to
look and see what the result of this inquiry is. What is happening
at the moment in Blantyre House is the staff, in the absence of
any explanation, are speculating. They are speculating that the
prison is going to change role, that it is going to be privatised,
that it is going to be closed down, and it is all pure speculation.
Until we can stop the speculation and allow the staff to get back
to what they do best I think they are going to have a little bit
of stormy sea around Blantyre House and the staff for a short
while.
418. Do you think that feeling is widespread
amongst the staff or is it limited to a certain number of the
staff?
(Mr Robson) I spoke to a lot of staff and everyone
I spoke to there was uncertain; I think that would cover them
all. "Uncertainty" is the word I would use. They are
uncertain of their future. They were in receipt of a talk by Martin
Narey and a letter from Martin Narey which give them some reassurance
about their future, but they are doubting everything at the moment
that they see and they hear.
419. Martin Narey has said to us in his written
submission that the ethos of Blantyre House has been maintained
and in some areas the performance has been enhanced. Is that the
POA view?
(Mr Robson) I think that we could have that view.
Martin Narey said that almost immediately after the raid to try
and reassure the staff. I, for one, do not believe that it is
going to be a change of role at Blantyre House. I think that there
needs to be some change in the way the prison is managed and the
way that the security aspects of the prison are run.
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