Examination of Witnesses (Questions 420
- 430)
WEDNESDAY 18 OCTOBER 2000
MR MARK
HEALY AND
MR TOM
ROBSON
420. What do you think needs to be changed then?
(Mr Robson) I think that there will be, perhaps, more
searches of people coming through the gate. That aspect of Blantyre
House was criticised by Sir David Ramsbotham in his report in
1997. He mentioned that he did not see evidence that people moving
in and out of Blantyre House gate had been searched. I think that
other than the tightening up on some of those aspects of what
happens at Blantyre House the staff will be able to continue and
produce a good regime there.
421. So, you are not worried that the regime
may be affected by things like job placements out in the community
being restricted?
(Mr Robson) I actually do not think that. It is a
bit like looking into the future. I think that once the staff
know the direction that they are going in they will be able to
adapt to that particular regime and get on with their work.
422. Mr Narey said to us in his written submission
that he thought the changes that had been made since the change
of governor could actually lead to a more effective regime in
terms of the resettlement role that Blantyre House supplies. Do
you think he is right?
(Mr Healy) I think what the Prison Service needs to
do is have clarity over the category of the prison. If you go
back as far as 1997 when Ramsbotham went in there then talking
about cat C prisoners, cat D prisoners, cat C prisoners with a
cat D regime—cat C is structured in terms of the way the
building is laid out—there needs to be clarity in what the
Prison Service want to provide at Blantyre House. Within this
report there is criticism over security, or lapses in security,
and at the same time compliments as to why the security was breached,
if you wish, because the regime was so good. When you have that
uncertainty over whether you are dealing with a category C prison
or a category D prison that is predominantly for resettlement
of prisoners, that uncertainty will transmit to the staff at some
particular points, and staff will always be criticised if you
have that uncertainty. So there has to be absolute clarity about
what Blantyre is there to do and everybody that is working at
Blantyre needs to understand that.
423. If I can summarise that then. The POA view
would generally be you do not mind too much about the regime,
as long as you know what it is and your members have certainty
about what job they are supposed to supply?
(Mr Healy) I believe the regime that was being produced
at Blantyre was good. I believe the results speak for themselves.
That is the first point. The second point is, yes, as a trade
unionist I want my members to know exactly where they stand at
work and what parameters they are working in and what parameters
they are not working in.
Chairman
424. Mr McLennan-Murray this morning told us
that it would take substantial sums of money to bring the security,
including sterile areas and all that, in that establishment up
to that of a cat C prison. Did I understand you properly, Mr Robson,
at the back of your comments you said there is more searching
of people in and out? Is that what you want to happen there?
(Mr Robson) I think it has been criticised in a report.
As prison officers our number one job is to keep people in custody
and then to produce a proper—
425. Forgive me, Mr Robson, the record of Mr
McLennan-Murray over the last two and a half years that he was
there is much better than that of Mr Bartlett who has been there
for a matter of weeks. He has lost more in that time than were
lost in the earlier period, people going over the wall and not
coming back.
(Mr Robson) The regime at Blantyre House over the
last six years cannot be criticised. It has produced the goods
and we can all see that.
426. There is, I think, this conflict, and I
think people do acknowledge there is a conflict, and it would
be argued, certainly by Mr McLennan-Murray and many others, that
the success of Blantyre House was because prisoners were trusted,
and because they were given trust. One of them said to us yesterday,
"Because we were given so much trust it made it very hard
to break that." In other words, you were given trust and
you gave it back. Now, part of that is because the prisoners know
fine well when they go in there what is not allowed. There is
no violence, no drugs and no booze, and they know that if they
breach any of these conditions they are back in Maidstone before
they can say "goodbye". There is attention there, and
I think this is really Mr Cawsey's point, just trying to get it
absolutely clear: Is this a cat C prison with all that goes with
that, the money that is needed to bring it up to that security
standard, that specialises or majors in resettlement, or is it
a resettlement prison that ought to be accorded a different kind
of status than a cat C prison.
(Mr Healy) I think I answered it.
427. You said different things.
(Mr Healy) Not at all. What I say is that the Prison
Service should actually answer that question that you have just
posed. Running a cat D regime with a cat C prison, Latchmere House
falls into the cat D category and that is a resettlement prison.
Kirklevington is the same, and that is a resettlement prison.
Blantyre is thrown into that pot, but there are cat C prisoners
in there, so there is confusion. If there is confusion what happens
is ultimately people do not know exactly where they stand, staff
get blamed at times for things that go wrong, even though at another
time they are getting praise for the marvellous regime they are
producing. There has to be clarity. What the Prison Officers'
Association are saying is: We will have members in Blantyre whether
it is a cat D resettlement prison, whether it is a cat C or it
is raised to the ground and a brand new prison is built, and we
will operate what prison the Prison Service want to operate there,
but they have to put the clarity in place. It is not a matter
for us.
428. Are you aware that Mr Murtagh, the Area
Manager, has advocated that the same kind of raid that was made
on Blantyre House be carried out at Latchmere House and Kirklevington?
(Mr Healy) Am I aware?
429. Yes.
(Mr Healy) No.
Mrs Dean
430. You quoted from the 1997 report on the
prison. I did not think that was repeated in the year 2000 report,
the one earlier this year?
(Mr Healy) I do not know.
Chairman: Anything else? Thank you very much,
Mr Healy and Mr Robson, you have been very helpful. We intend,
as far as we can, to publish this report as soon as we can, but
a lot is going to depend on what we are told in the next hour
or so. Thank you.
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