Examination of Witnesses (Questions 440
- 459)
WEDNESDAY 18 OCTOBER 2000
RT HON
PAUL BOATENG,
MP, MR MARTIN
NAREY, MR
JOHN PODMORE
AND MR
TOM MURTAGH
440. You may recall that in the document you
said that in paragraph two, "Chris Bartlett was appointed
as the new Governor of Blantyre House. Mr Bartlett's first action
as the new Governor was to request a full search of the establishment
and have every prisoner drug tested." You said, "I accepted
Mr Bartlett's request."
(Mr Murtagh) That is correct.
441. Is that not somewhat disingenuous? We were
told just yesterday, in answer to my question to Mr Bartlett,
that you only approached him on 3rd May, two days before the raid.
He knew absolutely nothing about his promotion and you only approached
him two days beforehand, and suddenly he should come up with a
request for this draconian search, and that you had requested
this request. You had been planning this thing for weeks, had
you not?
(Mr Murtagh) The search was authorised on 28th April
and the request was a formality from the Governor. Having taken
charge of the prison he then formally asked for us to carry out
the search, which was already planned, which he, as the Governor,
had to formally approve, and which he did.
442. You had been planning this for weeks, had
you not?
(Mr Murtagh) No, we had not been planning it for weeks.
We began planning it on the weekend prior, it was the Bank holiday
weekend. It was given formal approval on 28th April, if I remember,
and I briefed Mr Podmore to begin planning the search over the
Bank holiday weekend.
443. When did you first discuss this with your
so called Chaucer team, that conditions in Blantyre House were
such that it warranted this kind of SAS style raid?
(Mr Murtagh) I did not actually discuss
it with my Chaucer team. The Chaucer team are a support group
who are investigators. They report to us, but I did not discuss
it with them at all, I discussed it with my superiors.
444. In your report you refer to initial planning
meetings. When did they take place?
(Mr Murtagh) Can you repeat that?
445. You said, "I also attended the initial
planning meetings to provide advice based on my experience of
similar operations in the past."
(Mr Murtagh) That is correct.
446. When did they take place?
(Mr Murtagh) I attended the meeting at Rochester.
That was on the Wednesday prior to the search.
447. That is the 3rd.
(Mr Murtagh) The 3rd or the 4th, I think.
448. Is this before or after you had advised
Mr Bartlett of his exciting new appointment?
(Mr Murtagh) It was on the same day. He attended the
meeting.
449. Was it before or after?
(Mr Murtagh) I am sorry?
450. Was it before or after?
(Mr Murtagh) It was after I had told him.
451. You told him in the morning, "I've
got this exciting new job for you. You have got a briefing. The
first thing we are going to do is go and raid the place, because
I was authorised by the Director General on 28th April to do this."
(Mr Murtagh) I did not refer to it as a raid, I briefed
him that he was to take over as governor and I invited him to
the meeting where he became aware of what was planned. That was
all the detail that was given to him at the time. He understood
that it was a confidential matter at that stage.
452. Can I move to the actual promotion of Mr
McLennan-Murray from being a governor of a prison to being a deputy
governor of a prison, which I am told was a promotion? In answer
to questions taken in the House of Lords by Lord Mayhew, the former
Member of Parliament for the area, Lord Bassam said, "Mr
McLennan-Murray's career move to a different type of prison had
been planned for some time." Is it normal for the area manager
to serve a notice on a colleague that he is to be moved forthwith?
(Mr Murtagh) It does happen.
453. That is a planned career move, just to
say, "You are out this afternoon"?
(Mr Murtagh) I did not plan his career move. I was
merely the courier of a letter from somebody else. I did not decide
when he was to move or where he was to move to.
454. Who did?
(Mr Murtagh) That decision was made by the Director
General.
455. On whose advice?
(Mr Murtagh) I did discuss it with him.
456. I think you will find that in the evidence
that the Director General gave us it was upon your own advice,
Mr Murtagh. So you were not a by-stander in this.
(Mr Murtagh) I am sorry, I did indicate that I was
quite happy to have Mr McLennan-Murray as part of my team in the
area.
(Mr Narey) Mr Corbett, can I clarify this particular
line of enquiry?
Chairman
457. If you can help, sure.
(Mr Narey) Mr Howarth, I take every decision on the
appointments. I take all those decisions personally, each and
every one. I take them, generally, on advice from the area manager
and personnel department. I had decided to move Eoin on from that
post some months previously. He had been there for four years
and he was ready for a move. Indeed, there were one or two jobs
he had personally applied for. So the decision to move Eoin and
where he was to be moved to—although I later, on appeal
from Eoin, revised that—was taken by me on advice from Mr
Murtagh and by personnel.
Mr Winnick
458. To being a deputy governor of Swaleside?
(Mr Narey) That is correct.
459. The Governor of that particular prison
was the very person who was given responsibility in carrying out
the search on 5th and 6th May, John Podmore.
(Mr Narey) No. The person who carried out that search,
Mr Podmore—who is here today—had been the Governor
of that prison. He had already left that prison, or was in the
process of leaving, and Eoin would have moved to Swaleside to
work with a completely new governor who had just moved into that
post.
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