Examination of Witnesses (Questions 460
- 479)
WEDNESDAY 18 OCTOBER 2000
RT HON
PAUL BOATENG,
MP, MR MARTIN
NAREY, MR
JOHN PODMORE
AND MR
TOM MURTAGH
Mr Howarth
460. There was bit of musical chairs going on
all of a sudden on 5th May whilst the raid was under way, or had
been planned to be under way that night. Is this good management?
(Mr Narey) I do not think it is musical chairs, Mr
Howarth. Eoin had been at Blantyre House for about four years.
I think for the majority of that time he did a very good job.
He is a man I hold in high regard. I believe he needed alternative
experience and I believe, and still believe, he needed experience
in a more secure prison. Eoin is a man of some potential and I
expect him to govern larger prisons than Blantyre House in the
future, and I think he needed the experience of—
461. Mr Narey, I accept that entirely. I accept
that you were well disposed towards him. I accept that you were
not totally critical of what he was doing at Blantyre House, but
you cannot honestly sit here and tell us that a planned career
move was notified to this bloke all of a sudden—although
he had, through his own intelligence, got wind of it some three
weeks previously—and on the very day that you knew that
this bloke and his team were planning this Rambo style raid.
(Mr Narey) There is a distinction to be made between
the decision to move a governor on—I might say that I have,
since being the Director General, which is 20 months, moved, I
think, 12 governors on at very short notice from prisons that
have sometimes been failing. The decision to move Eoin was taken
by me some time before. I think I could produce a letter I sent
to the Chief Inspector telling him this some time previously,
because he had taken a personal interest. The timing of the move
is another matter. I was persuaded, because of intelligence, which
I hope I am able to convey to you in closed session, that we needed
to bring forward that move and at the same time, following that
move, we needed to engineer a search, not a raid, a search of
Blantyre House Prison.
462. It is extraordinary that this planned move
should have taken place on the very day that you were planning
a search of the establishment. Surely there is no better way to
signal to a man that you have no confidence in him than by removing
him on the very day that an exceptional move takes place, because
everybody who has come before us today has said that it is most
unusual to have undertaken this kind of lock-down operation with
an outside force and to combine the two. Surely this was not a
well disposed move towards somebody to whom you were favourably
disposed?
(Mr Narey) It is an extraordinary move made in extraordinary
circumstances. Once I had decided that there was a need to effect
a search of Blantyre House, which in itself is not exceptional—there
have been six lock-down searches of category C prisons in the
previous six months—
463. By outside forces?
(Mr Narey) All of them including outside forces.
Chairman
464. With sledgehammers and crowbars?
(Mr Narey) No crowbars were used. No sledgehammers
were used.
465. Maybe I have the tool wrong, but you insert
a metal instrument into the gap between the frame of the door
to prise it open. Is that a crowbar or is that something else?
(Mr Narey) A metal instrument is used, which we obtain
from the police specially for our purposes. No crowbars and sledgehammers
were used.
466. You are playing with words.
Mr Howarth: I think, Chairman, I have finished.
Chairman
467. Let me just ask another question about
this planned career move. It was so well planned that within a
few days it was withdrawn as not being appropriate. What kind
of planning is that?
(Mr Narey) That is not quite fair, Mr Corbett.
468. Did that happen or did it not happen?
(Mr Narey) If I may explain. I moved, or offered Eoin
a move, to be deputy governor of Swaleside Prison. I would not
have done that if I did not have confidence in him. Swaleside
is a very large and difficult prison. It would have meant that
for many weeks of the year, and at least four days in 14, Eoin
would have been in charge of that prison, and I still think that
in career terms it would have been very good for him. Eoin, with
the support of his trade union, protested against that and asked
if I would consider, in the circumstances, an alternative move,
and sympathetically I did and he is now doing a very important
job for me in education services. I remain of the view that the
best career move for Eoin, the best way of ensuring that he governs
a larger prison sooner rather than later, would have been to take
the first job I offered him at Swaleside.
469. Mr Narey, I have to tell you that you are
totally and wholly unconvincing. I accept everything that you
have just said to the Committee, but you are totally and wholly
unconvincing as to why that had to be done that day with the man
given two hours notice to leave the prison. It simply does not
make sense.
(Mr Narey) I think I need to explain later on the
extraordinary intelligence which led to that decision and why,
once the decision had been taken to affect the search,—
470. Just a minute. Let us get this clear now,
just a minute. So this was not a long planned career move then,
it was done on other grounds, was it, which you are going to tell
us about later?
(Mr Narey) No.
471. It cannot be both.
(Mr Narey) Mr Corbett, I have explained. It was a
long planned move. The timing was the thing that was special to
this particular day. I had planned Eoin's move on from Blantyre
for some time. The timing of the move was consequent upon the
need and the decision to search the prison and I thought it better
that the two things should happen at the same time.
Chairman: We will come to that later.
Mr Linton
472. I do not doubt for a moment that a career
move was planned for Mr McLennan-Murray, but what I do not understand
is for what reason was the security intelligence that you had
gathered not shared with the governor at the time? This intelligence
was with the Prison Service for some weeks before the search.
As we understand it from every other witness, the normal procedure
in these circumstances would be to inform the governor of the
prison about intelligence about his own prison. I accept that
there may be information that we do not yet have that may shed
a new light on this. If it was information about drugs that required
a drugs search or if it was information about contraband, all
of this, in the normal course of events, would have been imparted
to the governor and would not explain a lock-down search carried
out at night or carried out at such short notice.
(Mr Narey) I think I can only adequately explain that
in closed session. Chairman: Okay.
Mr Winnick
473. I want to ask you, Mr Narey, if you knew
of what can only be described as the tense relationship between
the Area Manager, who is present today, and the previous Governor.
Were you aware of that?
(Mr Narey) Yes, I was aware of that.
474. How long were you aware of it?
(Mr Narey) I had been aware of it, certainly, since
becoming Director General right at the beginning of 1999.
475. In evidence which we heard yesterday when
we were at the prison it was said by more than one witness from
the Board of Visitors that the previous Governor had been the
subject of bullying by the Area Manager. Have you heard of that?
(Mr Narey) I had not heard that either from Eoin or
from his union until I was told it yesterday and I heard Eoin
say it this morning, nor do I agree with it.
Chairman
476. Had the Board of Visitors not conveyed
this to you?
(Mr Narey) I do not recall the Board of Visitors conveying
this to me. The Board of Visitors have certainly used words such
as "robust" to describe Mr Murtagh, but I do not remember
them ever conveying to me that Eoin had been the subject of bullying.
I find it surprising that he would, because it is only a few months
ago that Eoin applied to work for Mr Murtagh in another job as
the Governor of Dover Young Offenders Institute.
Mr Winnick
477. So you were totally surprised yesterday
when you learned that he had been the subject of bullying?
(Mr Narey) I do not believe he was the subject of
bullying. I know Mr Murtagh has a robust management style. Frankly,
in the Prison Service that is frequently necessary. I think the
evidence shows that it is perfectly reasonable to argue that if
anything, on occasions, Mr Murtagh had not dealt with Eoin as
firmly as he might. When there had been recommendations as long
ago as 1998 of disciplinary action against Eoin the Area Manager
chose not to follow that. Mr Murtagh has 13 governors working
for him at the moment, 11 of them have worked for him before and
have volunteered to work with him again. That does not suggest
an ogre.
478. In evidence today Mr McLennan-Murray reported
to us one incident which had taken place and the explanation from
the Area Manager that he was "winding him up"?
(Mr Narey) I was not party to that conversation. I
do know that clearly Mr McLennan-Murray and Mr Murtagh had slightly
different views. I shared Mr Murtagh's view that Eoin had not
got the balance between security and resettlement right. I recorded
that formally in the Commissioner's book in June 1999 and wrote
in extensive terms to the Board of Visitors to convey that view.
I do not think that Mr Murtagh's instructions to the Governor,
for example, to have prisoners searched on entry to the prison
and for visits to be supervised and so forth were unreasonable
and I think the Governor should have carried them out.
479. You were aware of a tense relationship
which existed between the two?
(Mr Narey) Certainly, Mr Winnick.
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