Examination of Witnesses (Questions 480
- 499)
WEDNESDAY 18 OCTOBER 2000
RT HON
PAUL BOATENG,
MP, MR MARTIN
NAREY, MR
JOHN PODMORE
AND MR
TOM MURTAGH
Mr Malins
480. Do you share Mr Murtagh's view that the
men at Blantyre were "beyond redemption"?
(Mr Narey) That view has never been made to me by
anyone, and certainly not by Mr Murtagh. No, I do not share that
view, if anyone were to make that comment.
(Mr Murtagh) May I respond to that?
481. You should know first that it has been
given in evidence to us that you have said that to one of the
volunteers.
(Mr Murtagh) I have certainly not said anything of
the sort. I am a professional prison governor, that is my background.
I am in a business where if I had that belief I could not continue
to do my job. I categorically deny it.
Mr Winnick
482. Clearly both witnesses cannot be telling
the truth. You may be telling the truth or the witness yesterday,
but you cannot both be telling the truth.
(Mr Murtagh) I do not know what the witness said.
All I can tell you is the statement that you have made there as
quoting the witness I certainly did not say. I do not know what
else was said, but I am certainly happy to respond to that.
Mr Howarth
483. Can I put it to you, Mr Narey, that given
you were aware right from the start of this hearing of your responsibilities
as Director General, which I recognise are wide ranging, you knew
there was this tense relationship between a man who you are well
disposed towards, the Governor of Blantyre House, and the Area
Manager. Given that Blantyre House was quite different from the
other prisons that were then in the Area Manager's command, surely
it was unwise to have allowed this mistrust between the two to
build up, and surely it would have been better to take Mr McLennan-Murray's
career move decision rather earlier than it was taken?
(Mr Narey) If you remember at one point in the year
there was talk of changing the role of Blantyre House to become
a juvenile institution. I wanted to keep Eoin there. I think he
would have been an exceptional governor of an institution looking
after boys. I wanted to keep him there. Once that decision had
been made between the minister and myself that that was not going
to happen I considered that it was time for him to move.
Mr Stinchcombe
484. If I might go a little further in respect
of the statement given to us yesterday in evidence, Mr Murtagh,
that you had said that the residents, or inmates, of Blantyre
House were beyond redemption. That was told to us by the education
manager of Blantyre House and she gave a date upon which you said
it to her.
(Mr Murtagh) And the date was?
485. 5th July. It was the date of the minister's
visit.
(Mr Murtagh) I did speak to the education manager
on that date and I spoke to her in the Governor's office in the
presence of the new Governor. The subject of the conversation
was to pass a reprimand to her for the behaviour of one of her
contract staff who, in my view, behaved totally inappropriately
in the education department in the presence of prisoners. I spoke
to her and asked her to deal with the situation. That was the
gist of the conversation that I had with her. At no other time
did I make any such comment. There is a witness who was in the
office at the time.
486. Did you say that inmates, residents, of
Blantyre House were beyond redemption?
(Mr Murtagh) Of course I did not say that.
487. You would accept, would you not, that any
such statement would be completely out of keeping with the ethos
of the establishment?
(Mr Murtagh) Absolutely. Can I add that I set the
objectives for the establishment, I set the business plan with
the Governor for Blantyre House, and if that was my belief then,
presumably, it would be reflected in the business plan. I have
reinforced my desire that the ethos of Blantyre continues, even
with the change. My first briefing to the new governor was to
make that explicitly clear to him that the whole ethos of Blantyre
had to be maintained.
488. That was a lie, was it, that we were told
yesterday?
(Mr Murtagh) Well, all I can tell you is that I did
not say that.
Mr Winnick
489. She was lying?
(Mr Murtagh) Well, I did not say that.
490. You are saying if the evidence given to
us yesterday by the lady in question quoted you as saying that
and now you deny it, clearly she was lying?
(Mr Murtagh) If you like, then she is lying.
Mr Stinchcombe
491. Can I take you back to the document that
Mr Howarth referred you to and the questions that he asked you
about the second paragraph of that document?
(Mr Murtagh) I do not have the document in front of
me.
492. This is a document bearing your name and
prepared on your behalf and sent to the Director General?
(Mr Murtagh) Yes.
493. It says in the second paragraph that Mr
Bartlett's first action as the new Governor was to request a full
search of the establishment and have every prisoner drug tested.
(Mr Murtagh) Yes.
494. That was a request that you mandated of
him, was it not?
(Mr Murtagh) Yes, it was.
495. It does not say anywhere in this document
that you actually told him that his first action would be to request
of you and others a full search of the establishment, does it?
(Mr Murtagh) I indicated to him when he was informed
of his appointment that it was our intention to carry out a search
of the establishment.
496. This document does not make it clear at
all, does it, that you told him that his first action would be
to request of you and others that such a search take place?
(Mr Murtagh) May I finish?
497. Of course, if you answer the question.
(Mr Murtagh) I am trying to answer the question. I
did tell him at the time that we intended to search the prison
and I explained to him why that was, without going into explicit
detail. We had intelligence and reasons for doing that, part of
which I outlined to him and he agreed. You can say that I did
tell him that we would search there.
498. This document does not indicate that at
all, does it?
(Mr Murtagh) No, it does not.
499. It gives a completely misleading impression
as to the source of the request of that search action, does it
not?
(Mr Murtagh) It does not, because the document was
not intended for outside the search, the document was intended
as an internal document to individuals who were already aware
of what had been planned.
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