Examination of Witnesses (Questions 520
- 539)
WEDNESDAY 18 OCTOBER 2000
RT HON
PAUL BOATENG,
MP, MR MARTIN
NAREY, MR
JOHN PODMORE
AND MR
TOM MURTAGH
520. The fact that, as you know, everybody passed
the drugs test, for example?
(Mr Murtagh) Yes.
521. That mandates, does it, a similar scrutiny
of every other resettlement prison?
(Mr Murtagh) No. What I was referring to was the security
on the movement of prisoners, on the movement of items in and
out of prison. That is specifically what I was referring to, not
to do with drugs at all.
522. Not to do with drugs?
(Mr Murtagh) No, I was not specifically referring
to drugs. I was referring to the lack of security on the perimeter
and the ability of prisoners to move items in and out of prison
that were unauthorised.
523. That is very interesting because today
we have heard that the officers conducting the search at your
request were briefed that the prison was awash with drugs and
yesterday you told us that your principal concern, as I recollect
it, was with respect to the drug screening at Blantyre House.
(Mr Murtagh) I did not say that the establishment
was awash with drugs.
524. No, I did not say that. I have said just
now that today we have been told that the officers who undertook
the search were briefed that the prison was awash with drugs and
yesterday you told us of your specific concern about the drug
screening at Blantyre House.
(Mr Murtagh) With respect, that is not true. They
were not briefed that the establishment was awash with drugs.
525. You are not concerned with the prison being
awash with drugs?
(Mr Murtagh) I did not say that. What I said was the
staff were not briefed about the prison being awash with drugs.
I did indicate to you that there was intelligence, which I am
sure we are quite happy to deal with in private session, which
gave us cause for concern about the accuracy of the drug test
results and that we took the opportunity to carry out the drug
test during the search, bearing in mind that all prisoners in
Blantyre have signed contracts agreeing to be voluntarily tested.
526. When you took those drug tests everybody
passed?
(Mr Murtagh) Well, one prisoner refused to take the
test and there was one diluted sample initially.
Mr Howarth
527. You know why the prisoner could not take
the test, because he was incapable of passing urine.
(Mr Murtagh) I am sorry, I do not know that.
Mr Howarth: You ought to know that, Mr Murtagh.
Mr Stinchcombe
528. Just to understand this. On the back of
that search, you recommended to the Director General that every
other resettlement prison undergo similar scrutiny. However, so
far as drugs are concerned, on which you did have intelligence,
the actual search showed you there was no use of drugs at all?
(Mr Murtagh) That is correct.
529. That would not justify, would it, similar
scrutiny at other prisons?
(Mr Murtagh) I was very pleased to see that. However,
I was concerned that drugs were found. The issue I was referring
to was the generality of security systems and the fact that staff
are conditioned in these environments and we need to keep alert
to that.
530. It follows, does it not, that what you
actually say in this report is that you do not need intelligence
to justify such scrutiny of a resettlement prison? You do not
need intelligence in respect of a governor. You do not need intelligence
in respect of any drugs. You simply need the outcome of this particular
search even though it shows there was not even drug use at this
prison. That is what you are saying.
(Mr Murtagh) No, I am saying in every prison—we
are dealing with prisons here—prisons have basic security
needs. They are defined in the search strategy agreed between
the governor and the area manager of the respective establishments.
What I am suggesting is that we need to ensure that in all the
establishments these search procedures are being carried out and
that the security procedures have been carried out because what
we discovered at Blantyre was they were not being carried out.
531. You see the concern that I have is a very
simple one. It seems to me to be quite clear from this document
that you do not support the ethos of resettlement prisons because
you here request the Director General to search or to scrutinise
similarly all resettlement prisons even without intelligence,
and on the back of a previous search of one of these establishments
which shows no drug abuse at all.
(Mr Murtagh) I do support the whole concept of resettlement
under the ethos of Blantyre. My correspondence with the Governor
and the instructions I have given and the business plan of the
establishment reflects what I believe. I am sure you have already
had sight of the document that I issued to the Governor before
there was any awareness of this going on at the moment. I fully
support the resettlement concept. Where perhaps I might differ
from some is that I believe there has to be a balance and that
balance has to take account of public protection in what we do.
The risks are measured risks when we allow prisoners into the
community and the circumstances in which we allow them into the
community. I believe that I am right to do that. Can I finish,
please, because I have not finished answering your question?
532. Of course.
(Mr Murtagh) Secondly, with regard to the broader
issue of resettlement, I have already set up an additional resettlement
unit at Rochester within my area and I am proposing the further
development of another one at Stamford Hill. I became aware, as
I have no doubt you have heard in evidence, that there was a lack
of a clear policy in this area regarding resettlement. Two years
ago, because I felt that through a lack of guidance and the fact
that governors in these establishments were operating on their
own initiative and sometimes on the parameters of what is acceptable
in terms of public risk and taking initiatives themselves, I felt
that there was a need to have clear guidance and clear policy
on resettlement. Initially I brought the governors of resettlement
prisons together with a view to encouraging the service to develop
such a policy which the Director General has picked up now and
which others have. So two years ago I was actually advocating
a clear policy for the service on resettlement rather than see
the situation develop where the whole concept of resettlement
might be put in danger by mistakes being made. I am sorry, I do
not agree with you.
533. Can I just ask one final question? You
have told us that the manager in charge of education must have
been lying when she said that you told her that the inmates at
this place were beyond redemption. Was the Governor also lying
when he told us this morning that you called him and told him
there were going to be shock/horror probe stories in the newspapers
the next day and when he checked up there were no such stories
and when he checked with you, you told him that you were winding
him up?
(Mr Murtagh) I have no knowledge of what he is talking
about. I do not know what he is saying that I said was going to
be in the papers the next day.
534. You never made those calls?
(Mr Murtagh) I do not recall ever making such calls.
Mr Winnick
535. We have two witnesses who are lying to
us.
(Mr Murtagh) I am answering the questions that I have
been asked.
536. According to you there have been two statements
made to us which are lies?
(Mr Murtagh) Mr Winnick, when I spoke to the education
manager I was in the presence of the prison Governor who I think
is a third party who is aware of what was said. He can confirm
that what I am saying is true.
Chairman
537. Mr Narey?
(Mr Narey) I thought it important as a recipient of
that note to stress how I received it. I did not receive it as
any suggestion that we needed to do the same things at Kirklevington
or Latchmere but it would have been bizarre and, indeed, negligent
of me not to learn from what we found at Blantyre and get the
respective area managers to check the other resettlement prisons.
Similarly when we found out the drivers were driving uninsured
the first thing I did was make sure that was not happening in
other areas.
538. I just want to get into the boardroom at
Swaleside Prison at 6.30 on Friday May 5.
(Mr Murtagh) Okay.
539. Were you both there?
(Mr Murtagh) Yes.
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