Examination of Witnesses (Questions 560
- 579)
WEDNESDAY 18 OCTOBER 2000
RT HON
PAUL BOATENG,
MP, MR MARTIN
NAREY, MR
JOHN PODMORE
AND MR
TOM MURTAGH
560. Do not let us quibble about—
(Mr Podmore) They had equipment which was specifically
designed to force entry into doors where entry by normal means
was not possible.
561. Are you aware of any requests being made
by anybody concerned in that raid for keys and being told that
they could not be found?
(Mr Podmore) Could you repeat that?
562. Are you aware of any of the officers taking
part in the raid requesting keys and being told they could not
be found?
(Mr Podmore) Yes, every door that had to be forced,
we looked as far as we could—
563. You could not find the keys?
(Mr Podmore) We could not find the keys.
564. This is why I asked you about the key register.
So the inference then is that some officers had breached prison
discipline by not returning keys to where they should be returned?
(Mr Podmore) I know of at least one admission of that
case on one of the very first sets of keys we tried to find which
was for the catering area.
565. Are you aware whether that officer or any
other officers have been charged with disciplinary offences in
connection with not returning keys to where they should be returned?
(Mr Podmore) I have no knowledge.
566. You have no knowledge. Would you accept
from me that no such charges have been made?
(Mr Podmore) I would accept that.
567. Let us just stay with the briefing now.
At any time, based upon your own personal live knowledge of Blantyre
House, did you question what it was planned to do there? Did you
say to Mr Murtagh "Look are you sure that we should do this?".
(Mr Podmore) No.
568. All right. Is that because you did not
feel that you had the authority to question it and you were obeying
instructions in that sense?
(Mr Podmore) I think it is well known my ability and
willingness to question almost anything that I come across in
the prison service.
569. So you had no reason to doubt that this
was a sensible thing to do?
(Mr Podmore) Reference has been made to the Chaucer
Team. You may or may not be aware that I headed—well I did
until I left to join the Inspectorate—up the Chaucer Team
and I set up the model. In terms of the intelligence issues, I
was well aware of those intelligence issues.
570. Okay. Let me just get on to the actual
search and then I will hand over to my colleagues. There was a
considerable amount of damage done around the prison, not just
locks expertly opened, as it were, prised open, door frames smashed
down, doors smashed off their hinges, is that right?
(Mr Podmore) I would refute anything other than the
technique by which the National Dog Team—
571. I am not asking about the technique, I
am asking about the amount of damage. Is that a reasonable description
of some of the damage done in the prison that night?
(Mr Podmore) I would not have used that terminology,
no. There was forced entry to a number of doors.
572. Door frames were smashed from the wall
and doors smashed down. We have seen photographs of this, you
have not?
(Mr Podmore) I was there.
573. I know you were there, you did not see
any of this?
(Mr Podmore) I saw doors damaged. I saw door frames
damaged. When you are forcing entry into a locked door by means
which the dog handlers are well practised in doing, there will
be damage, that is inevitable.
574. What was the point of breaking down both
doors which led into the same medical room which also included
dental and x-ray equipment, what was the point of that, given
that prisoners are never ever allowed in there on their own?
(Mr Podmore) The strategy for the search which is
a fairly routine strategy in lock down searches is that there
will be a hand search by search teams. In this case there were
five teams of three searchers who were in direct contact with
prisoners. There were 15 staff in contact with the prisoners in
the prison area. The other element of the search is that the non
prisoner areas would be entered and the ammunition and explosive
dogs and the drug dogs would do a sweep of those areas. The object
of the search was to carry out the A&E, the ammunition and
explosive search, and the drug dog search in all those non prisoner
areas.
Mr Linton
575. Do I take it you were looking for firearms?
(Mr Podmore) We were looking for everything. One extreme
would be firearms, ammunition and explosives and the other extreme
the relatively routine contraband.
Chairman
576. Are you aware that two hours before those
doors were broken down, as a result of a prisoner being suspected
of taking drugs and he said "I am on medication which may
give this result", keys were used to go into that centre
to find the prisoner's records to confirm what he said was the
case, then they were locked up again and then two hours later
the doors were smashed down?
(Mr Podmore) I have no knowledge of this.
577. You have no knowledge of it?
(Mr Podmore) No.
578. You were in charge of this, were you?
(Mr Podmore) I was indeed.
579. Were you in the training centre or in the
prison?
(Mr Podmore) I was in the training centre which is
the normal way in which something like this would be conducted.
Towards the end of the evening I did go into the prison to see
for myself how things were going, how the place was being left
and to talk to the searchers and talk to prisoners.
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