Examination of Witnesses (Questions 620
- 639)
WEDNESDAY 18 OCTOBER 2000
RT HON
PAUL BOATENG,
MP, MR MARTIN
NAREY, MR
JOHN PODMORE
AND MR
TOM MURTAGH
620. What was the justification for that? Did
you know about this?
(Mr Podmore) No. I would like to answer the allegation
you are putting before me. I have said already that as part of
the team for the search I had someone by the name of Alan Shipton
who used to work there. Also on the ground throughout a significant
part of the night was the new Governor.
621. He did not know the place, he was brand
new.
(Mr Podmore) Also on the ground was Brian Pollet,
who had been the Governor there for some considerable period of
time. Also, I had with me the head of the National Dog Team, a
man with, as I have said already, great experience and integrity.
Now I needed and I wanted those senior people around, walking
about, talking, supervising all the things which were going on.
Towards the end of the evening I went into the establishment myself.
Throughout the key part of the evening there were also members
of the Board of Visitors. I am as saddened as anyone else that
they did not choose to stay on. Now I did not see what you are
describing to me. Neither was any such scene described to me by
any of those key senior people that I had on the ground, precisely
to supervise the activities which were carried out.
Mr Winnick
622. You justify everything that happened? You
have no regrets about any incident which occurred on the night
of 5/6?
(Mr Podmore) I have not said that. I regret very much
that it was necessary to force entry into certain rooms.
Mr Howarth
623. Was it necessary to damage prisoners' work?
What sort of example does that send to the prisoner about respect
for other people's property?
(Mr Podmore) Firstly, the initial reference you made
to the prisoner's work was I believe a file of photographs that
was part of the course work for that particular prisoner. That
was removed and I believe—and I may stand corrected—it
has been subsequently returned. The allegation that other work
was damaged, destroyed and thrown around the place, I am afraid
I have to refute.
Chairman
624. Mr Podmore, you cannot simply refute it.
Is he lying to us? Is that instructor lying to us? Why would he
make that up?
(Mr Podmore) No. I am saying that when we left I was
adamant that we checked things, that we looked around, that we
made sure that as far as possible—yes, okay, doors had been
damaged—that sort of thing had not taken place and did not
take place.
625. Let us try this another way. If that is
as it is alleged, would you still defend that?
(Mr Podmore) Of course not.
626. Right.
(Mr Podmore) Of course not. If it did happen, and
I cannot account for the action of every single member of staff
who was under my command that night, if it did happen, and it
was one of them, then I am responsible, I have no problem with
that.
Mr Cawsey
627. I am still trying to get to the end of
my Chaplain's questions. We always seem to get off that subject.
When I visited the Chaplain's office yesterday and spoke to the
Chaplain, he told me about his key, as far as he was concerned,
being readily available. He wanted to show me, also, that the
team broke down the door to gain entry but then left untouched
a large locked cabinet. Now we have spoken about there being a
clear strategy for this search. What strategy has the idea that
you break down the door to gain access to an area and then leave
a large cabinet locked and untouched?
(Mr Podmore) Can I help you by explaining to you the
way in which A&E dogs and drug dogs work? They are able to
detect the presence of whatever substance they are trained to
detect in a cupboard. So breaking open a cupboard if it is not
readily accessible is not necessary.
Mr Stinchcombe
628. You were looking for money in the Chaplain's
office amongst other things. You took 120 odd quid out. Why not
open the cupboard as well?
(Mr Podmore) No. May I refer back to the overall strategy
of the search which I alluded to earlier which was to check the
non prisoner areas via the use of A&E dogs and drug dogs for
those substances. Now if they came across cash in that context
then it was quite appropriate for them to remove that cash.
Mr Winnick
629. The Chaplain was not hiding any drugs?
(Mr Podmore) As far as I am aware there were no indications
by the drug dogs—
Mr Winnick: That surprises me a great deal,
Mr Podmore!
Mr Cawsey
630. Was this an intelligence driven, briefed
search of Blantyre House or was it a fishing expedition?
(Mr Podmore) I would not describe it as a fishing
expedition.
631. You would not describe it as a fishing
expedition. You have obviously done these sorts of searches before
at institutions other than Blantyre House. If we go through what
has been found, we have a small amount of cannabis, so small the
Director General cannot quantify it. We have a small number of
ecstasy tablets. We have what the Director General says is a considerable
quantity of pornography, it was actually seven items, in a 120
man prison. Compared with other searches you have done, would
you say this was a considerable amount of contraband and the like,
in your experience?
(Mr Podmore) I have recently visited Kirklevington
as part of the Chief Inspector's recent inspection and I would
have to say, having spent a week in Kirklevington walking around,
talking to prisoners, talking to staff, that I would not have
expected to find the same amount of material in Kirklevington
Grange.
632. I did not ask about Kirklevington Grange,
I asked from your experience, which you have got in other prison
institutions, would you say what you found in those searches would
be higher or less?
(Mr Podmore) My main experience was searching in places
like Belmarsh, which is a very high security prison. So it is
not unreasonable to draw a comparison with other sorts of establishments.
The comparison I would attempt to draw would be with a similar
type of establishment.
633. But in a high security prison you might
say that drugs would be even tighter to get through. If there
was only a small amount of cannabis and a couple of ecstasy tablets,
I am asking you whether that is a good catch from your perspective
or whether it can be regarded as a very small amount compared
with other prisons you have actually searched?
(Mr Podmore) It is a small amount of drugs, that is
clearly obvious. As the Director General said, if the ecstasy
tablets were not for use within the establishment where were they
for use? I have to say, I do not know whether you have looked
at the profile of the prisoners. It has been mentioned already
that they were drug free when they got there so it seems unlikely
that Blantyre was housing hard drug users in any event.
634. Why the search then?
(Mr Podmore) The search was for a range of things,
anything from drugs, ammunition and explosives, through to relatively
mundane things like—
Mr Malins: Spirit levels.
Mr Cawsey
635. Spirit levels and pornographic photographs.
(Mr Podmore) Can I address the point about the builder's
tools. We seem to have lost sight of the fact that this prison
houses I believe 20 lifers?
(Mr Narey) 20 lifers, yes.
(Mr Podmore) One of whom is serving a long sentence,
albeit a long time ago, for the murder of a police inspector.
Chairman
636. Finishing a sentence.
(Mr Podmore) Indeed. There are still 20 lifers in
that establishment.
Mr Cawsey
637. Mr Podmore, you have just said that this
search was for drugs, ammunition and explosives. So we know you
have got virtually no drugs. What ammunition and explosives were
there?
(Mr Podmore) I have said, the brief was to look for
anything from the range at one extreme of drugs and ammunition
and explosives across the spectrum. I did not know what we would
find.
638. It is a fishing expedition. Let me finish,
Mr Podmore. At the end of the search, do you have a de-brief of
your officers?
(Mr Podmore) Yes.
639. Of the officers who took part in that,
what were their comments about what they found?
(Mr Podmore) The main comment I got from the staff
who I spoke to was the quantity of belongings in cells.
Mr Cawsey: Nothing to do with drugs or ammunition
or explosives.
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