Examination of Witnesses (Questions 680
- 699)
WEDNESDAY 18 OCTOBER 2000
RT HON
PAUL BOATENG,
MP, MR MARTIN
NAREY, MR
JOHN PODMORE
AND MR
TOM MURTAGH
680. Why did the Prison Officers' Association
have the same words in front of them this afternoon?
(Mr Podmore) I can only tell you the briefing I gave
to staff. I am either a liar or I am not.
681. I am not suggesting that at all, I am just
trying to understand how it is that we have been led to believe
that many of the people undertaking that search were briefed in
those terms.
(Mr Podmore) Can I perhaps give you a rationale why
I would not have said that, why it is highly unlikely that I would
have said that. I was Governor of Swaleside for some four years
and at Swaleside I had a number of projects, offending behaviour
projects. I also ran the largest drug treatment community in the
prison service, that was a 120 bed specific drug treatment unit.
That was providing drug treatment with the assistance of Addaction,
who you may be aware of, and my officers working in conjunction
with them. I dealt with and we treated and provided aftercare
for a significant number of difficult, damaged prisoners who had
a range of drug problems. I have to say to you that in the four
years that I was Governor of Swaleside, not one of those prisoners
ever managed to get to Blantyre House. My perception of the profile
of the prisoners that were getting to Blantyre House were the
sort who were not the difficult and damaged prisoners that I was
dealing with in my drug treatment programmes but had other backgrounds
which would probably not lead to them being widespread drug users.
The figures are available and you may find that a more significant
number are there for trafficking and importation rather than use
thereof.
682. How did so many people get the impression
that the prison was awash with drugs and under the control of
the prisoners?
(Mr Podmore) No doubt to discredit the search and
discredit me, I must imagine.
(Mr Murtagh) Can I be of help because I was present
when the briefing took place. I can also confirm that those words
were never used in the briefing.
683. The search was nonetheless to look, we
have just been told, for guns, arms, explosives, drugs and anything
down the range of contraband.
(Mr Podmore) That is correct.
684. And we know that you found no drugs and
no arms and no explosives and we know the extent to which you
found drugs.
(Mr Podmore) Yes.
685. The dogs that you referred to, presumably
they were used principally to search for explosives and for drugs.
Would they have been used to search for anything else?
(Mr Podmore) It is possible to use them in what is
known as a sweep across open areas to detect, shall we say, unusual
items. If you had a football field, say, you could deploy them
as a kind of zig-zag sweep and they would find something out of
the ordinary.
686. There is a football field at Blantyre.
Were they deployed for that purpose?
(Mr Podmore) No. The grounds of Blantyre House, as
you will be aware if you have been there, are quite extensive.
The technique of letting dogs loose in that kind of operation
was not something that I wanted to do given that it was at night.
Okay, there was some lighting but it was relatively limited. If
there are dogs loose when numbers of people are around, that is
not good practice. Can I finish? They were used to search certain
areas on what is called a long leash which would allow them to
partially carry out that manoeuvre but they would still be under
the control of a handler and not a danger to anyone else who might
be around the buildings.
687. The fact is, is it not, that because you
chose to search at night you could not search the bottom of the
compound and some of the other ground areas at all?
(Mr Podmore) That is correct. I would have to say
that in any search you have to draw certain limitations as to
the extent of that search.
688. But you had intelligence here that led
you to go in heavy-handed, mob handed.
(Mr Podmore) No, I am sorry—
689. Can I at least put the question to you.
You may answer it whichever way you wish.
(Mr Podmore) Okay.
690. You had intelligence which justified, so
we are told, going in with 86 or whatever it was officers in order
to search for arms, explosives and drugs and yet by going in at
night it was impossible, was it not, to search the bottom compound,
other ground areas and the portakabin used as a recording studio?
You could not search anywhere in those areas for that contraband,
drugs or explosives.
(Mr Podmore) First of all, you have made yet another
pejorative reference to the nature of the search. I have tried
as best I can to address that. You are saying that, no, I did
not search every square inch. As ever in these situations I have
to make certain decisions as to how much I can search and where
I can search. I decided not to and I take responsibility for that.
691. So you did not search the bottom compound,
the other ground areas and the portakabin used as a recording
studio?
(Mr Podmore) We searched some ground areas but I am
pretty sure we did not search the bottom of the football field.
692. Let me take you back into the Chaplain's
office where you broke the door down, even though the Chaplain
told us he left his key at the gatehouse. Just there we are told
that you did not search the locked cupboard either.
(Mr Podmore) I have attempted to explain that.
693. It would have been impossible, would it
not, to have found whether there were mobile phones, cash, bank
cards, passports, forged driving licences, cameras, building tools,
pornography, tattoo equipment, screwdrivers or car radios in that
cupboard or any other cupboard without opening it?
(Mr Podmore) Again, I refer back to the strategy of
the search, which I think I have explained about three times now,
which was that the hand searching, looking for the whole range
of items, was done in the prisoner areas. The communal areas were
only being searched for ammunition, explosives and for drugs.
So, yes, you are absolutely right, that cupboard could have been
awash with mobile phones but I was not looking for mobile phones
or cash cards in those communal areas. It is about drawing certain
limitations and parameters on the search to make the exercise
practical.
694. We know you found no explosives, we know
you found very little drugs and we are now aware that it is thought
that what was found was so significant that this particular raid
was nonetheless justified. That is the list that I have just described
to you, and yet you made no effort at all to look for any of those
things in the locked cupboard in the very office that you broke
into.
(Mr Podmore) As I say, I have explained the strategy
of the search and I think that answers your question.
695. I am trying to understand whether there
is any rationale for the strategy of the search. You did consider
it sufficiently important to look for money in the Chaplain's
office to take the money from his desk. Why was it not sufficiently
important to look for these other items in the cupboard?
(Mr Podmore) As far as I am aware, the cash was discovered.
There was not a specific, deliberate attempt to be searching for
anything other than ammunition, explosives and drugs. I do not
know, I can make some enquiries and write to you,[5]
but it may well be that the dog had indicated, and it is possible
for dogs to indicate for a whole variety of reasons, for an A&E
dog it is possible to indicate the presence of the chemicals found
in ammunition and explosives which are fairly innocuous things,
it may well be there was a minor indication of some sort in a
drawer. If there had been an indication by the drug dog or the
A&E dog to the cupboard then the cupboard would have been
emptied by some means.
696. The office in the gym, was that also searched?
(Mr Podmore) As far as I am aware, yes.
697. Was the door also broken in there?
(Mr Podmore) I cannot recall.
698. We were told yesterday that the door was
broken in even though, again, the key had been left at the gatehouse.
(Mr Podmore) Yet again, I have addressed the issue
of the keys. If I was aware that the keys were available and the
keys were available then the doors would not have been broken
down.
699. What instructions did you give to those
undertaking the search as to whether to look for keys before breaking
down a door?
(Mr Podmore) I spoke with Alan Shipton, who was the
guy who wrote the key systems. On one occasion there was a particular
set of keys that initially we could not find but we were able
to obtain them by examining the systems. He was key to my information
and my decision to force doors on the advice that as someone who
was familiar with the place, familiar with the situation, he was
not able to obtain the keys.
5 See Appendix 5. Back
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