Examination of witnesses (Questions 420
- 439)
TUESDAY 11 JANUARY 2000
MR CHARLES
CLARKE and MR
GRAHAM WIDDECOMBE
Mr Howarth
420. I am sorry. The Minister is actively looking
at it?
(Mr Clarke) Yes, we are and just to say, Mr Chairman,
on Mr Howarth's first point, I take inflation as a valid point,
and £20 is an issue as to what that means. However, I do
want to place on record that any government would have to be concerned
even if it was small amounts of damage caused by guns being shot,
of whatever kind. That is a matter of concern and something we
would want to bear down on, and I am sure all Members of the Committee
would agree with that.
Mrs Dean
421. Can I clarify one thing? Does the figure
of 7,506 recorded incidents of air weapons in 1997 equate exactly
to the 4,813 in 1988? In other words, was there a change of the
basis
(Mr Clarke) As I understand it they are on the same
basis.
422. So the change is since 1997 and, therefore,
there was a dramatic rise between 1988 and 1997 on the same basis.
(Mr Clarke) As I understand it, that is right.
Chairman
423. Mr Clarke, can I ask you, as far as illegal
weapons are concerned, whether the Department has made any assessment
of the use at ports of entry of low X-ray equipment, for the purposes
of detecting weapons, drugs and people?
(Mr Clarke) I cannot tell you that actually.
424. Would you like to give us a note on that?
(Mr Clarke) I am very happy to give you a note about
it.
425. Thank you very much indeed. Can we turn
now please to the existing controls and procedures. You will be
aware that one of the findings of the Cullen inquiry was that
had the police fully and properly applied the regulations in place
at the time that Thomas Hamilton would not have had his licence
renewed. You will also probably remember that something similar
was said in the case of the tragedy at Hungerford. Can you say
in which way the Home Office is able to monitor the consistency
with which police forces apply the controls or is this left in
practice almost entirely to the Inspectorate of Constabulary?
(Mr Clarke) This is a very important and powerful
point. The way in which monitoring takes place is, as you say,
through Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary. In this case
it is reinforced by the ACPO guidelines which police authorities
have to follow in relation to the operation of these areas and
it is the job of the Inspectorate to report on how effectively
controls are being carried through. We believe that a central
element in the approach is the national register which I mentioned
earlier and we are not in a position to monitor properly because
we do not have a national register. There is no doubt whatsoever
that there have been different practices operating in different
police forces throughout the country in ways which can be very
damaging to our ability to understand exactly what is happening
and to monitor properly what is taking place. Fundamentally the
weapon for this, as you imply in your question, is the Inspectorate
of Constabulary rather than any separate monitoring arrangements.
426. You mentioned the ACPO guidelines. We have
been told that the Home Office guidelines are out-of-date and
they have been added to rather like extending a greenhouse at
the back of a garden. Would it concern you if the ACPO guidelines
were out of kilter with those issued by the Home Office? Do you
have any plans to update the Home Office guidelines?
(Mr Clarke) Our publication is called Firearms
Law Guidance and the police and we are currently updating
that. The document sets out legal and policy issues for the police
in the interests of national consistency and that work is taking
place. It is taking more time than we would like but the purpose
is to make sure that the guidance is as useful as possible. ACPO
has been holding meetings at both national and regional level
to ensure that individual licensing officers in forces share information
and adopt common strategies. HMIC has expressed a concern that
licensing should not be detached from the work of the Police Service
for the reasons we were talking about earlier and it is proper
that licensing officers should build up a good level of professional
knowledge and specialised experience. HMIC are currently working
on improving their procedures for inspecting firearms licensing
departments within constabularies. So there is a series of initiatives
at Home Office and HMIC level and through ACPO which are designed
to dovetail together and be consistent in the way you are implying
but I think the thrust of your question that it would be beneficial
if that were accelerated is a correct thrust and one which I accept.
We do need to accelerate the work that we do in that area.
427. Just so I have not misunderstood you at
all, you take the point that the Home Office guidelines and ACPO
guidelines ought to fit together?
(Mr Clarke) Absolutely.
428. You mentioned, Mr Clarke, the vexed matter
of the register. We have a note from Assistant Commissioner Hart
this morning (he promised to write to us after an earlier evidence
session) saying that at best it would be up and running by the
summer of 2001. You will obviously be aware of the long number
of years that this proposal has been under discussion by ACPO.
It was first raised by ACPO as long ago as August 1996. For some
reason they reconstituted that Committee in March 1998 although
I understand that they did not meet until September 1998. Do you
get the impression that ACPO is dragging its feet over this?
(Mr Clarke) I accept the phrase "dragging its
feet" but I do not accept the phrase "ACPO is dragging
its feet". What I believe is the case is that we the Home
Office and the Police Service as a whole have been less effective
than we need to be in developing the use of databases across a
wide range of different approaches. If you look at the introduction
of information and communication technology into the police force
in a variety of different ways, of which the firearms register
is only one, the fact that we have had a negotiated process between
the 43 police authorities and police forces on the one hand, the
Home Office on the other and also the collective organisations
of ACPO, APA and HMIC has led to a process of introducing technology
into the police which in my opinion has been less rapid than it
needed to be. That problem and weakness in our system that we
are currently taking very active steps to address has had its
impact on this particular issue of the database for the register
of firearms certificates. So I do not think the implication of
your question that ACPO are in a sense holding back and dragging
their feet because they do not think this is desirable is right,
but the criticism that the system has not been as fast as it needs
to be in this area (and others) to develop proper use of information
and communications technology including this database is a fair
criticism but that is because the system has not been effective
in the way that it has taken decisions in those areas.
429. Thank you for that, Minister, but what
that national database is going to show up among other things,
is it not, is evidence that may support accusations or suspicions
of inconsistency of application for the certificates. The 43 separate
police forces would not be human if they did not put their hands
in the air to volunteer for that.
(Mr Clarke) But that point, Mr Corbett, as you know
from your much better experience of this whole area than I, is
a comment which could be made legitimately about a whole range
of areas of consistency across the different police forces in
different areas. It is certainly true in this area of the firearms
certificates. It is also true in relation to the number of other
areas related to technology and databases. What I was trying to
do, perhaps illegitimately but I think legitimately, was to say
that it is wrong to state in my view that ACPO is trying to hold
back work in relation to firearms certificates. It is more accurate
to say that there is a real problem in getting a common technological
means of common databases across the whole country right across
the field including the area of firearms.
430. I think you have been refreshingly frank
about that. Just finally on this particular point, are you minded
to agree a deadline for the staged introduction of this database?
(Mr Clarke) You correctly said that summer 2001 is
what we currently expect. I am not prepared to commit myself to
that deadline absolutely here but I could well understand if the
Committee sought a deadline that was moving forward.
431. Are you prepared to ask ACPO to commit
themselves to a deadline?
(Mr Clarke) It is not so much ACPO as the whole of
the Police Service and ACPO and the forces.
432. They speak for the Police Service.
(Mr Clarke) One of the difficulties in the whole of
the ICT pointI was discussing this yesterday with colleaguesis
we have no deadlines so things have slipped all the way down the
line in many of these different areas including this and what
we have to do is establish a system of getting deadlines that
can be respected. I well understand the point you are making that
it would be very good to have a deadline in this area but I am
not prepared to say to you today, "Yes, I commit myself to
this deadline." I am saying I can understand why you would
think it reasonable that there should be a deadline.
433. We have had a lot of evidence suggesting
at the very least that there should be a rationalisation of the
firearms law which in many instances is a hotch-potch. Are you
sympathetic to that point to tidy it up?
(Mr Clarke) I am very sympathetic to it. There is
a whole series of issues about ages and styles and systems where
some consolidation would be very beneficial. The ideal way of
doing that in my view would be through a new Firearms Act but
that is of course subject to all the issues of parliamentary time
and all the rest of it and where it finds its place in the priorities.
Failing that, consolidating the existing law with the help of
the Law Commission might be an attractive option in the case of
some different areas. Obviously the superior option would be to
get some primary legislation which would be consistent right across
the range.
434. You told us, Minister, that the firearms
rules of 1998 are aimed at identifying the suitability of a person
to hold firearms rather than licensing the firearms themselves.
Are you able to say how that is working?
(Mr Clarke) I think that goes back to your initial
question about the effectiveness of the process. I do not consider
that we yet have enough data to say to you it is working well
or not well in relation to particular geographical parts of the
country or particular forces. I do think the whole process has
been highlighted by the actions taken by this Government since
it came to office and by the processes I describe. Would I feel
confident in saying to you, "This is my assessment?"
No, I would not at this stage because I think that we need a more
systematic approach through the Inspectorate and ACPO and the
Home Office before being able say to you hand on heart, "This
is my full assessment of what has been happening."
435. Do you have any thoughts on the suggestion
that the licensing system should be shifted by having matching
provisions for both firearms and shotguns on a single licence?
(Mr Clarke) I think there is a case for that in the
general context we have talked about but, as I described in my
responses to Mr Linton, I think there are really quite serious
practical issues to be addressed before being able to say one
can do that. There is a case in terms of the logic of bringing
that together but the practical issues are genuinely substantial.
436. When you and I were much younger there
were proposals knocking about for a civilian firearms licensing
authority. Is that something that is still under consideration
or has it been rejected?
(Mr Clarke) It is under consideration in the context
that everything is. I certainly do not feel that we are sympathetic
to that approach at the moment because I think it is very important
that the police's direct responsibility for this is retained with
the degree of local knowledge and so on that exists for the situation,
provided that we have a proper regulatory system in the way we
have talked about through ACPO and Home Office guidelines and
with the Inspectorate producing a proper approach. You will obviously
be considering whether you want to make recommendations in this
area but the reason why I certainly am prejudiced (and I would
say it is the Government's position at the moment) towards keeping
the responsibility with the police is that we think that that
local input and knowledge is very important to the effective operation
of the system provided that we can be confident that it is being
done properly and inspected properly by the devices that we have
established here. I am not convinced that establishing an entirely
separate organisation to do that nationally which would need to
have all the local orientations that are necessary would be as
cost efficient or as effective as a properly regulated system
through the police.
437. I think it is the case that the charges
involved for both firearms and shotguns are meant to make that
system self-financing?
(Mr Clarke) They are, yes.
Chairman: Thank you very much. Mr Russell on
air weapons.
Bob Russell
438. Minister, you have acknowledged today that
the amount of misuse of air weapons has increased and of course
we are referring here not just to criminal damage but also attacks
on people, pets and wild animals. Did I detect from your answer,
though, a degree of complacency within the Home Office and perhaps
this is also reflected in the police forces in tackling this issue?
(Mr Clarke) I hope you did not. If you did, I think
you are wrong. I do not think it is a trivial issue, I think it
is a very serious issue. As I say, I have never been part of any
organisation or approach to shooters in a way that is at all sympathetic
but the questioning started from the point of view did I see this
as a significant threat to crime and that is where I was saying
no I did not think that was the case. But do I think there are
social and other issues related to it which are important? Yes
I do.
439. We have been given evidence that it is
relatively easy for young people particularly to obtain these
weapons in the first place. Do you think there should be legislation
or restrictions placed on how these weapons can be acquired in
the first place?
(Mr Clarke) Particularly for young people there is
a genuine case for looking at how we might better regulate access
to them. I say again the reason why I perhaps appeared complacent
to you, which I would hate to do, is the fact that I do not think
this is a serious issue in terms of the general crime issues that
have been going around. There are other issues which are important
of the type Mr Linton raised in the questions he was putting which
I take extremely seriously but from the straight crime point of
view I do not think the issue is so significant.
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