Examination of Witnesses (Questions 220
- 229)
TUESDAY 14 DECEMBER 1999
MR PATRICK
JOHNSON, MR
WILLIAM HARRIMAN,
LT COL
JOHN HOARE,
MR BEN
GILL AND
MR HUGH
OLIVER-BELLASIS
220. Can I take you back to the muzzle loading
pistols that you mentioned. Is it right that those type of pistols
have now been developed so that their power and accuracy are similar
to handguns?
(Lt Col Hoare) That is not true.
221. And that they can be reloaded as quickly?
(Lt Col Hoare) There has been no development on that
at all.
(Mr Harriman) The technology has not developed since
1836 when Samuel Colt did his first patent formula. They are exactly
the same. They take a long time to load and they were effectively
obsolete by 1870. The Canadian Government tried to sell its surplus
and could not find a buyer in 1872.
222. Mr Johnson, can I go back to the scenario
you were describing when you made the analogy between shooters
and runners. You seemed to be suggesting there would inevitably
be a desire among shooters to test the boundaries of any ban that
there was.
(Mr Johnson) I am not sure that I said that.
223. Let me put it another way. If you were
saying, as I thought you were, that a ban on a 100 metres race
would simply lead to somebody wishing to express himself in a
different form of race which tested him in similar ways, are you
not arguing that any ban that was introduced by this Parliament
or a successive Parliament would simply lead shooters to seek
to develop different ways of testing the boundaries of that ban?
(Mr Johnson) No, I do not think I have said that at
all. I think my colleague has said already that the sport has
lost a lot of people who committed no crime, who were not a danger
to the public, but because they were stigmatised in that way they
decided that shooting was not for them.
(Lt Col Hoare) Others have moved across into air pistol
shooting from cartridge pistols. These are respectable and responsible
people who have acted responsibly and respectfully and handed
their pistols in for some pretty meagre compensation compared
with the criminals who still kill people almost by the dozens
in a month continually and with guns that have been prohibited
since 1988.
Chairman
224. Mr Johnson, can I just clarify something.
You were on about knowing who has got what on which certificates.
You will be aware that there is an obligation under the 1997 Act
to establish a national register. I do not know whether you heard
last week Mr Hart from ACPO explain to us the great difficulties
they are having in trying to get their proposals up and running.
Do you share my concern that this is taking such a long time?
(Mr Johnson) I share your concern, Chairman.
Mr Winnick
225. I want to ask you about your recommendation
that where the police refuse a licence or a Revocation Order is
made then that person in your view should be able to go to a specialist
tribunal. Is that right?
(Mr Johnson) At the moment there is only one avenue
and that is the Crown Court. It makes sense everywhere else in
life. For example, in industry we have tribunals that resolve
issues without the recourse to law and that is all we are saying.
This is an example of where there is an opportunity instead of
going to law to try and resolve some of these issues in a non-confrontational
way.
Chairman: Beware, Mr Johnson, there may be lawyers
on this Committee.
Mr Winnick
226. So a police officer could look into all
the circumstances in reaching a decision that a person should
not have a gun or, having had one, that should be revoked. Nevertheless,
you believe that should not be the final decision but a tribunal
should be set up accordingly, is that right?
(Mr Johnson) No. Any tribunal would at least begin
to gather a body of decisions and be of benefit. You heard Mr
Hart say last week about things like enforcement being dependent
upon the attributes of a particular chief constable because, as
you know, chief constables are independent officers and cannot
be directed by the Home Secretary. We see situations where decisions
are made here today, there tomorrow and somewhere else the next.
We are saying there should be an opportunity to resolve some of
these issues without recourse to law. We are not taking away the
right of the Chief Constable at the end of the day, if he wishes,
to refuse or revoke, but at least there would be a body which
would be an intermediate step.
227. Do you accept a scenario wherein if Hamilton,
the mass murderer, had his certificate taken away, which I think
you would agree should have happened, he would have gone to such
a tribunal and argued the case and may well have won that case?
(Mr Johnson) I am not sure he would, Chairman. The
biggest fears about Hamilton were amongst shooters themselves.
They knew Hamilton. There was no line of communication between
them and the police and that is where the problem lies. I do not
believe that Hamilton would have won at a tribunal.
228. We do not know. It would have been one
more opportunity for him, had the police taken the decision we
would all have liked, to be able to have a further appeal. You
agree with that, obviously. Had the police acted as we would have
liked—
(Mr Johnson)—he would never have been granted
a certificate, sir.
229. Had your tribunal existed there would have
been one more opportunity for him to argue his case that he was
a law abiding citizen.
(Mr Oliver-Bellasis) I think it is exactly the reverse.
If that had gone to something similar to a Lands Tribunal which
has worked in my industry over a very long period everybody accepts
the police would have welcomed it because it would have taken
out of their hands an extraordinarily difficult decision which
we all understand they were under pressure to give. Could I also
add, Chairman, that the national database is extraordinarily important
and with great respect to the Assistant Chief Constable who gave
evidence last week, the difficulties of putting it in place are
perceived rather than practical.
Chairman: We are going to do our best to encourage
the police to carry out that bit of the Act. Gentlemen, thank
you very much for your help. As ever, you have given us a lot
to think about and I hope your cold gets better as quickly as
mine, Mr Gill.
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