Examination of Witnesses (Questions 300
- 319)
TUESDAY 14 DECEMBER 1999
MRS GILL
MARSHALL-ANDREWS,
DR MICK
NORTH AND
PROFESSOR IAN
TAYLOR
300. There is not much prospect of that happening,
it seems to me, the prospect of them trying to resist further
controls. You really rather dismissed the question of the illegal
weapons, if I may say so. We received evidence last week that
virtually all crime, apart from domestic crime, involving firearms
involves the use of illegally-held weapons. Indeed the statistics
show that since the draconian ban on handguns there has been virtually
no change in the number of crimes involving the use of firearms.
Are you seriously suggesting that we should—notwithstanding
the fact that those who hold weapons legally are largely not involved
in crime and their weapons are largely not involved in crime—ban
them and not address the real issue which faces this country,
which is that of illegally-held weapons?
(Mrs Marshall-Andrews) Not at all. We are saying that
illegal weapons are a big problem. We accept they are a big problem.
The police accept there is a big problem and I very much hope
the police are given the necessary resources to deal with that
problem. What we are saying is that it is not possible to make
a clear-cut distinction between the legal, on the one hand, and
the illegal on the other.
301. Why not?
(Mrs Marshall-Andrews) As I said before, most illegal
weapons have started out legal. The gun laws in a society have
an impact upon the totality of firearms in that society. It is
very clear, it is the totality of guns in society, legal and illegal,
that have a correlation with the level of gun violence.
302. You mentioned that guns or weapons come
in illegally into the country from abroad because of conflicts
round the world. I can tell you, if you go Pesha"war, up
near the border by Afghanistan, you can get any weapon you like
made there in a matter of days. I am afraid we have no jurisdiction
over that part of the world these days. Are you suggesting that
simply because weapons can come in from there or come in from
conflicts in the Balkans that we should therefore penalise those,
if I can quote Assistant Commander Hart, "Who are mature,
responsible people who pursue whatever activity they have for
their firearm in a lawful way."? We should penalise those
people, is that what you seriously suggest? It is a major, major
infringement on the rights of people in this country simply because
we cannot stem the flow of illegal weapons coming into the country.
(Dr North) I do not think we said anything like that
at all. I do not think we mentioned anything about the Balkans
and Pesha"war.
303. Mrs Marshall-Andrews referred to weapons
coming in because of conflicts around the world.
(Mrs Marshall-Andrews) I think the point I wanted
to make is that most weapons start out legal, wherever they are,
wherever they are manufactured they are mostly legal.
304. Most of the legal weapons in this country
do not end up in the hands of criminals, do they?
(Mrs Marshall-Andrews) The police are very concerned
about two ways in which there is slippage from the legal into
the illegal, one is theft and the other is through deactivation
and then subsequent reactivation. Those are the two major sources,
in their view, of illegal weaponry in this country, not imports
from other countries.
305. We heard that thefts do not amount to a
huge number in numerical terms. After all you yourself said that
numbers are important, although the police dismiss that. If there
are relatively few weapons or a very small proportion of legally-held
weapons being stolen and thereby used or deactivated and reactivated,
by definition there is an increase in the supply of weapons coming
in from abroad?
(Mrs Marshall-Andrews) We are not in a position, again,
to say what the police have said. Their information is what we
would go by. If they are saying that imports from abroad are not
the problem then we would agree with that. We are not in a position
to say they are wrong, indeed I do not think there is better evidence
than theirs.
306. Can I ask you two other brief questions?
When you said you are in favour of a minimum age limit of 18 for
ownership/possession/use of all kinds of guns, are you extending
that to the Army Cadet Force and to all other military cadets?
Are you suggesting they should not be taught how to use guns?
(Mrs Marshall-Andrews) Yes, I think our position is
that we want to see the age of 18 as the age at which people can
handle weapons legally.
307. So people should be able to join up in
the Army at the age of 16 but not be entitled to handle a firearm
at 18. Is that not nonsensical?
(Mrs Marshall-Andrews) There are anomalies. Perhaps
one could put it the other way round, that you do not recruit
into the Army until the age of 18. That would be a possibility.
I do not want to go into this because I do not think it is a big
issue.
308. Do you not think particularly with young
boys who have, in my experience having two sons, a natural affinity
towards playing with guns, that it is much better the parents
should be able to teach them at the earliest possible age how
safely to handle guns and therefore reduce the risk rather than
try to flow against the tide and stop them?
(Dr North) I would be worried about your expression
"playing with guns", I think it hints at something which
concerns all of us.
309. It is a fact, Dr North, is it not, that
children at an early age get cowboy outfits and things like that.
You suggest the expression "playing with guns" is somehow
sinister, but it was not meant in that way. I am saying that is
what I did when I was young, it is probably what you did as a
child—
(Dr North) I did not.
310. But it is quite usual for children to have
done and they will continue to do so, and it is much better they
should be taught how safely to handle them.
(Dr North) I am sorry, I disagree entirely with that.
I do not think an expression like "playing with guns"
conveys the right image about what are later on lethal weapons.
311. So you would ban cowboys and Indians?
(Dr North) No, I would not ban cowboys and Indians,
but—
312. That is playing with guns.
(Dr North) If I had a boy I would not encourage him
to play cowboys and Indians.
(Mrs Marshall-Andrews) What you are talking about
is replicas really. If you are talking about the water pistol
which does not look anything like a gun, then we do not have a
position about that. We do have a concern about the kind of guns
which look to the lay person like the real thing. There are a
lot of airguns which look to most people in the street like the
real thing, they do not know they are airguns, they might be shotguns
or rifles. There is not general awareness of what different guns
look like.
313. So you would like to ban that (indicating),
would you? It is a BB gun, do you know what a BB gun is?
(Mrs Marshall-Andrews) I have read about it—I
know you produced one or talked about it in your evidence last
week.
Mr Howarth: I did and I am as good as my word,
I produced it today. It is a BB gun which fires a little plastic
pellet about 30 yards, and a lot of young boys like to play with
these and—
Mr Linton: And older boys as well, I think!
Mr Winnick
314. And a lot of MPs as well probably!
(Mrs Marshall-Andrews) If you produced that in a balaclava
or something to a sub-postmaster over a counter or appeared to
threaten somebody in a vulnerable position, I think they would
be very alarmed. You smile—
Mr Howarth
315. Would a knife not have the same purpose?
(Mrs Marshall-Andrews) We are not talking about knives,
we are talking about firearms. Something which is capable of threatening
or appearing to threaten life is of concern and it is not a funny
issue. It is not a matter for jokes. You may think they are toys,
your boys may think they are toys, but for most people they would
be regarded as something which could possibly kill them.
316. If they were abused, I would accept that,
but if a car is abused it is a far more lethal weapon, it kills
infinitely more people than guns ever kill. I am trying to pursue
the logic of your argument. Can the three of you tell us whether
you have visited a rifle club, because there are of course no
handgun clubs any more?
(Mrs Marshall-Andrews) I have seen a demonstration
of the British—
317. Have you been to a rifle club?
(Mrs Marshall-Andrews) Yes.
(Dr North) I have not, I would not wish to.
(Professor Taylor) Yes, I have.
318. Was it well organised?
(Professor Taylor) The one I went to was reasonably
well organised.
(Mrs Marshall-Andrews) Yes. I went as a member of
the Firearms Consultative Committee and it all seemed perfectly
all right.
Mr Winnick
319. I do not know if you, Mrs Marshall-Andrews
or your two colleagues, have met any of the parents who lost their
children at Dunblane, but do you think that if you did meet them
they would take a rather light-hearted attitude to what we have
just been hearing?
(Dr North) Mr Winnick, I am one of the parents.
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