Examination of witness (Questions 100
- 119)
TUESDAY 21 NOVEMBER 2000
THE RT
HON MR
JACK STRAW
100. The problem becomes an individual police
authority's for whatever reason, and Mr Howarth said earlier that
officers may be disillusioned, perhaps in particular force areas
or whatever, and drop out of the service. It is not even the fact
that if you had, for want of a better phrase, an average number
of retirements you have got this increase in burden, you can also
find suddenly that the figures go beyond your control because
somebody has done their full 30 years and need only give a month's
notice and then leave and suddenly you have an enormous hole in
your budget. Do you not accept that all of those sorts of pressures
must be taken away from the police authority at each individual
area if there is going to be any certainty in planning and fighting
crime effectively?
(Mr Straw) I agree we should reduce the pressures.
There has to be some pressure on the police authorities in respect
of pensions and the Chiefs so that they do not make decisions
which they regard as free in terms of early retirement and things
like that, management retirement, which in fact has a big impact
on the public purse.
101. If somebody has done 30 years, it is nothing
to do with the local service.
(Mr Straw) What is important, I do not think we will
be able to do it before next year, is that the SSA better takes
into account the impact of pensions on individual police services
than it does at the moment. The other thing we are looking at,
again easier said than done, is to see whether we can provide
better incentives for officers to stay on beyond the 30 year mark.
At the moment quite a number of officers do and we are very grateful
to them but they do not exactly get thanks for this in terms of
their salary because they go on contributing to their pension
payments although they do not get an enhanced pension as a result.
102. If I can move away directly from funding
on to performance. You have spoken already about the fact that
it is undeniably true that different areas are having different
performances with similar resources. What are you doing to actually
analyse that and try and ensure that good practice is carried
out across all of England and Wales and not just in certain areas?
(Mr Straw) A huge amount is the answer. With the Chief
Inspector of the Police Service Constabulary, Sir David O'Dowd,
we have a programme for inspection of the basic command units.
In the past formal inspections have taken place at a police force
area, what we are now moving to do is to inspect at the divisional
area and it is in the divisions you get the biggest variation.
If I may, Chairman, use an example which would be local to the
West Midlands. Within a very large West Midlands Police Service
you have got very busy inner city divisions and you have also
got ones which are very suburban, some are verging on rural, on
the borders of West Mercia and that area. It is obviously important
to inspect the service as a whole because what you are inspecting
there is quality of overall leadership, management, things like
that, but it would also be of help to the citizens of Birmingham
as well as to the Chief Constable and Members of Parliament, to
know how, for example, the inner city divisions are performing
compared with others in a similar position. I do not want to suggest
there is too close a comparison between schools and police services
because you have to have a super structure above a division which
is in the police service to deal with contingencies and things
like that and provide service-wide provision, which you do not
have to have the same equivalent in the local education authority
with respect to schools. The result of the inspection system in
schools has been to ensure real pressure for schools which are
in a similar position to raise their performance to the level
of the best in that position. We have already had some pilot inspections
of BSUs, that produced a lot of information about variation, and
one of the factors behind variation, now moving forward to a programme
of systematic inspection of BSUs. At the same time there is a
great deal of work going on to analyse the effectiveness of the
crime and disorder partnerships which typically are co-terminus
with BSUs but sometimes are not, to get them to raise their game
as well.
103. You mentioned West Midlands there which
immediately made me think about issues to do with consistency
of recording crime and clear up rates afterwards. I know you have
done some work on that since you have been Home Secretary. How
satisfied are you now that when we look at tables of recorded
crime figures and clear up rates for England and Wales that in
fact you are comparing like with like?
(Mr Straw) We are closer to comparing like with like
now than we were, not least because of the changes in the recording
systems, that I introduced in 1997, which kicked in I think in
late 1998, which ensure that the figures are more accurately reflecting
the number of crimes reported. For example, the old system did
not record assaults on the police. When there was a break-in to
a secure car park and 15 vehicles were broken into in turn, that
would be down as one break-in rather than 15. There are many glitches
in the system. The old system significantly under recorded fraud,
credit card fraud particularly, as well as, for example, not recording
common assault. I changed the system and I have to say that it
has not been the most popular decision which I made because it
has had the effect of increasing the numbers rather than decreasing
them. I happen to think it was right. The public do have a right
to know better levels of crime in their area. There are still
variations between forces, in the West Midlands, for example.
Just to go back a bit. One of the things which followed alongside
my changes in the system for recording has been improvements in
the practice of recording. It is a combination of those which
almost entirely explains the apparent large increase in recorded
crime in the West Midlands. We thought that was the case but the
British Crime Survey now gives us certainty to say that is the
case because that shows in its long term study—15,000 samples
done on a consistent basis, all the statisticians saying that
it is the best measure of crime—that shows crime has come
down 10 per cent between 1997 and 1999. The explanation for the
increase in the numbers in terms of recorded crime is the fact
that the public are now reporting more crimes to the police than
they were. There are still variations in the practice and the
inspectorate between different forces, less than it was but it
is still there. The inspectorate are doing a lot of work to raise
it.
104. Just one final question from me. That is
really to do with getting the most out of police officers and
what I mean by that is people go on about police numbers, yet
in reality when you speak to the public they do not know what
the police numbers for their area are anyway. I think what they
really mean is police presence, how often do we see them. It strikes
me the biggest thing that can be done to improve that would be
to have systems in place which meant that police officers were
dealing with less bureaucracy and able to spend more time on the
street. Again, going back to 1993, this seems to be something
which has been a clarion call for a long time now. What is happening
to improve that situation?
(Mr Straw) You are right about that. The important
Audit Commission report which was published in 1996, Street Wise,
showed that at any one time only five per cent of police officer
strength was available for general patrol. Now that also goes
back to this issue about police numbers. You had a 20 per cent
increase in the number of officers available at any one time,
that would increase that proportion from five per cent to six
per cent. The other 95 or 94 per cent are explained by people
in squads, on shifts, because it is a 24 hour service, by all
sorts of distractions, health, sickness, management and so on.
This is why, as you say, Mr Cawsey, what the public are concerned
about is visibility rather than about numbers which are to some
extent an abstraction to them. You are asking what we are doing
to cut down paper work, a great deal. I have implemented the Narey
changes which have meant that those who are guilty of their crimes
and intending to plead guilty get to court much more quickly than
they did before, that cuts down paper. There are abbreviated files
for these people so that the police and CPS do not have to go
through putting together substantial witness statements when they
are not needed. That also has the effect of cutting down the remand
population in the prisons, which is greatly to be welcomed. That
has happened. Continuing efforts to identify ways in which the
amount of duplicate form filling can be cut down. We have also
got this very large IT project, custody case preparation system,
which is critical. That is not working out as satisfactorily as
it should do but we are putting a lot of effort in to ensure it
performs better in the future.
Chairman
105. Home Secretary, on this section, you told
the House yesterday that police spending is to increase from £7.7
billion this year to £9.3 billion in 2003/04, which is a
12 per cent increase in real terms over those three years, with
next year's increase the largest for almost two decades.
(Mr Straw) Yes.
106. What do you think the public has the right
to expect from that heavy extra investment? How will they know
it is working?
(Mr Straw) Improved performance by the police in terms
of getting crime down is the answer.
107. Yes.
(Mr Straw) An acceptance that, yes, we all acknowledge,
and I certainly acknowledge, that the police service have had
a difficult time in terms of funding for some period but we are
now putting in this very big investment and we are backing it
with a lot of other work that is going on in terms of the crime
reduction programme and, for example, the improvements to the
efficiency of the court system, the Crown Prosecution Service,
which are so important to raising the performance of the overall
law and justice agencies to make our society a safer one.
Mr Winnick
108. As far as performance is concerned, Home
Secretary, we can be more or less confident there will not be
the repeat of the blunders and incompetence which took place in
the investigation of the murder of Stephen Lawrence?
(Mr Straw) You cannot be absolutely certain of virtually
anything in life but what I can say is the risk of that happening
is very greatly reduced and the new Commissioner, Sir John Stevens,
and his Deputy, Ian Blair, and all the rest of his staff at the
Metropolitan Police are determined that it should not. They are
not just saying that but ensuring that systems are put in place
to ensure it does not happen again.
109. Since the matter was raised previously
you have met Mr and Mrs Lawrence, as I understand it, am I not
right?
(Mr Straw) I meet them very regularly is the answer.
I saw them a couple of weeks ago. I see them probably at least
once a month in one form or another.
110. Presumably the attitude of the parents
of Stephen is somewhat different from the views expressed by Mr
Howarth today?
(Mr Straw) Yes.
Mr Howarth
111. Can I ask a question as Mr Winnick just
mentioned me by name. Pursuant to Mr Winnick's remark, the Home
Secretary will be aware that the Metropolitan Police are in negotiation
with the Lawrence's on a pay out which has been reported as being
as high as £320,000. Whilst nobody is in any doubt about
the nature of the tragedy and the personal grief of the Lawrence
family, nevertheless what is your view about this sort of level
of money that it has been suggested might be paid out? Can you
tell us how much was paid out to the family of PC Blakelock who
was brutally hacked to death by a black gang in Tottenham?
(Mr Straw) The answer to your second question is no,
but if the Committee wants the information I would be happy to
try to supply it[7].
The answer to your first question is that I would not dream of
commenting on this because it is a matter of potential proceedings
between Mr and Mrs Lawrence and the Metropolitan Police Authority
and the Commissioner. I was involved when I was with the Police
Authority, which was up to 2 July of this year, I am no longer
involved.
Mr Linton: Home Secretary, let me briefly take
you on to a subject which is unusually in the news at the moment
which is the reform of the machinery of elections. The United
States' election is hardly an advertisement for vote counting
machines.
Chairman: An absurd shambles.
Mr Linton: There have been a number of experiments
recently: mobile ballot boxes in Maidenhead, postal ballots in
Wigan, and even, I believe, early voting in Blackburn—
Mr Howarth: And voting often in Dublin.
Mr Howarth: More interestingly, polling booths
with automated polling equipment in Bury, Salford and Three Rivers.
Mr Winnick: Sounds like Florida.
Mr Linton
112. You have presumably received the evaluation
reports from these pilot projects. Can you tell me what they say
and when some of these schemes are likely to be rolled out nationally?
(Mr Straw) I have answered a Parliamentary Question
about this as well. The practice and the evaluation showed that
it was all postal ballots which made the significant difference
in terms of turnout, very significant difference. Partly to my
surprise, none of the other changes made much difference at all
and that included early voting and what happened in Blackburn
with town centre voting in advance. I had assumed—this was
just my judgment—that making polling more available to people
would make a difference to turnout but it turned out—sorry,
no pun intended—it transpired that it did not.
113. It may have made a difference to the convenience
of electors.
(Mr Straw) It may have done. There is a further round
of pilots which take place at the local elections in May. We have
received applications. I will see if I can turn up my note about
it. We are in the process of assessing those. Here we go: 32 local
authorities ran 38 pilot schemes. All postal ballots was by far
the most successful scheme in terms of increased turnouts with
some areas doubling previous figures. Evaluation reports showed
all postal ballots to be approximately two and a half times more
expensive to run than normal ballots. Subject to the usual caveats
about the Treasury, I happen to think that is a small price to
pay for improving the accessibility of our democracy. We have
received six applications to run schemes in May 2001, five for
all postal ballots and one for electronic counting. The all postal
ballots would have a fair wind but on electronic counting I think
we have to make sure that the machinery works rather better than
the punch card system they have in the United States.
114. That was a 34 year old system.
(Mr Straw) I know. That is one of the interesting
things about the United States, everybody thinks the United States
is very modern and up-to-date but often the technology they use
is remarkably antiquated.
115. Can I ask whether you are going to publish
some of these evaluation reports?
(Mr Straw) I think we have published the evaluation
reports. Yes, we have published them and they have been made available,
so there are no secrets at all about them.
116. One specific question that certainly voters
in my area are keen to know the answer to is whether the provisions
for the rolling register and postal votes on demand are likely
to be in force in time for the next local election?
(Mr Straw) Yes is the answer. They arise from the
Representation of the People Act 2000 which received Royal Assent
in March of this year. These provisions, as you say, through the
rolling registration make postal votes available on demand, allow
the homeless, mental patients and remand prisoners to register
to vote in the area or at the address where they are resident,
provide further assistance for disabled voters and also allow
voters to stop the information which they supply to the actual
register from being sold on. We are intending to bring these into
force on 16 February next year which is the day when the register
changes.
117. Does that mean people who moved into a
property after 12 October can still expect to be able to register
before the May local elections?
(Mr Straw) I think so, Mr Linton. Because I do not
wish to provide information in error to this Committee I will
write to you about it[8].
118. The Electoral Commission is part not of
this Bill but of the Political Parties Bill currently going through
the House of Lords, so clearly that has not been set up yet. Can
you give us an indication of whether you have been able to prepare
for the setting up of an Electoral Commission and will you be
able to move quickly once that Bill is passed?
(Mr Straw) Yes. A huge amount of work has been done
on the establishment of the Electoral Commission. There was an
open competition and a selection panel chaired by Sir David Omand,
who is the Permanent Secretary at the Home Office, and that has
recommended the appointment of individuals, whose names I am very
happy to give the Committee, as Chairman and as members of the
Commission. As you may recall, Mr Linton, because it is extremely
important that this Electoral Commission is above the battle and
is plainly composed of people not only of integrity but of impartiality,
the arrangements are that we consult with leaders of all the other
parties and if they are content, as they were with those whose
names went forward on the short list, there is then a recommendation
to the Speaker, whose agreement is required, and a motion on the
address from the House of Commons to Her Majesty for the appointment
of these people. That cannot take place until Royal Assent. The
Chairman who will be recommended is Sam Younger. The other members
of the Commission are Pamela Gordon, Sir Neil McKintosh, Glyn
Mathias, Koranjit Singh and Professor Graham Zellick. A great
deal of work is going on on the implementation of the Political
Parties, Elections and Referendums Bill. We are aiming to bring
into force the bulk of the Bill, if it becomes an Act, on 16 February
next year. Everybody here knows the importance of that date. It
is not chosen at random, it is the day when the new registers
come in.
Chairman
119. Two days after Valentine's Day.
(Mr Straw) It is two days after Valentine's Day and,
if you are seriously interested, it is 30 years and a day after
decimalisation was introduced. We could go on.
7 See Annex A. Back
8 See Annex A. Back
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