TUESDAY 16 MAY 2000
  
                               _________
  
                           Members present:
              Mr Robin Corbett, in the Chair
              Mr Ian Cawsey
              Mrs Janet Dean
              Mr Michael Fabricant
              Mr Gerald Howarth
              Mr Martin Linton
              Bob Russell
              Mr David Winnick
  
                               _________
  
               MEMORANDUM SUBMITTED BY HM PRISON SERVICE
                       EXAMINATION OF WITNESSES
  
                 RT HON PAUL BOATENG, a Member of the House, (Minister of State),
           Home Office, MR MARTIN NAREY, Director General, HM Prison Service,
           MR JOHN GLAZE, Grade 7, Action Against Drugs Unit, Home Office, and
           MR MARTIN LEE, Grade 7, Drugs Strategy Unit, HM Prison Service,
           examined.
  
                               Chairman
        1.    Thank you, Mr Boateng, for coming to see us.  We wanted to go
  over the Government's response to our report on Drugs and Prisons, but before
  we get into that I wonder if it might be convenient to have a few words about
  Blantyre House.  You will know that a number of us visited Blantyre House and
  were much impressed with what we found there.  We were grateful when the
  Home Secretary responded to say that, on consideration, they were not now
  minded to transfer it into a young offenders' institution but to leave it as
  it was.  I think we got that letter at the end of last month; then we read
  that the Governor and the Deputy had been quickly moved and 100 prison and
  police officers turned up at 8.30 on a Friday night, 5 May, and set about the
  place.  Were you told of the decision to remove the Governor, Mr Boateng?
        (Mr Boateng)   Chairman, let me first of all set these events in context. 
  We are, as you know, Chairman, committed to the concept of resettlement for
  prisoners; and I have taken a personal interest in that and in the transition
  from prison to the community; and the emphasis on training and education is
  absolutely essential to successful resettlement and, therefore, to combatting
  recidivism.  As a result of that commitment, and as a result of the
  undoubtedly valuable work that was and is being performed at Blantyre House
  (which in many ways, as you have said, is a model for others), Ministers were
  very firmly of the view that Blantyre House should continue as a resettlement
  prison - and let me reaffirm that view here today.  There are, however, a
  number of concerns that exist on the part of the Prison Service for good
  reason as to security at Blantyre House.  As a result of those concerns, it
  was necessary to carry out a search of that institution; and as a result of
  that search quantities of contraband were uncovered, including drugs, credit
  cards and large quantities of money.  As a result of that, there clearly is
  justification in the concerns in relation to security.
  
                             Mr Fabricant
        2.    Were they stolen credit cards or credit cards which were legally
  owned?
        (Mr Boateng)   I wonder if I could come to that in a minute.  There
  clearly were concerns and justification for the concerns that had been
  expressed around security.  I was informed of the fact that that search was
  deemed to be necessary.  I was informed of the outcome of the search and of
  the various personnel changes that followed it.  
  
                               Chairman
        3.    The Governor and the Deputy Governor were removed before the
  search started.
        (Mr Boateng)   I am going to ask the Director General to respond to you
  on the operational issues arising from events at Blantyre House.  I want to
  set it into perspective.  The detail of those concerns - and I now come to
  Mr Fabricant's point - is a matter of some sensitivity, Mr Chairman, as indeed
  is the detailed outcome of the search.  You will understand that there is an
  ongoing criminal investigation into matters that stem from the search.  I do
  not want to comment in any detail on it - save to say, that the Prison
  Service, as you will be aware, puts a great store on its liaison with police
  and on the business, importance and significance of intelligence gathering. 
  Indeed, your own report at paragraph 59 indicates the significance and
  importance that you as a Committee attached both to the intelligence gathering
  and, indeed, elsewhere in the report you refer to the importance of police
  liaison.  There was close police liaison around this operation; close use and
  detailed use of intelligence sources; and they are, and remain, serious causes
  of concern in relation to security, and there is an ongoing criminal
  investigation.
        4.    Are you aware that on the night of 5 May all the inmates were
  made to have drug tests; and do you know the results of those tests?
        (Mr Boateng)   I do not know the results of any tests.  I am aware that
  there were some tests.  The actual detail of the tests is an operational
  matter that I would not expect to be informed of.  I will ask the
  Director General to assist the Committee insofar as he is able subject, as you
  will appreciate, Chairman, to the concerns that we have about the integrity
  of the whole operation - because we do have to maintain the integrity of the
  intelligence operation and not in any way prejudice the ongoing criminal
  investigation.
        (Mr Narey)  The intelligence, as the Minister has stated, was extremely
  serious and had been building up for very many weeks.  In 1998 we intervened
  at Blantyre House to stop certain prisoners exploiting their conditions of
  temporary release - not to attend work, to attend some work placements which
  we found to be bogus.  It is not the first time we have had difficulties at
  Blantyre House.  A very famous notorious prisoner called Kenny Noye was there
  some years ago and was involved in very serious criminal activities.  I think
  Blantyre House is a very, very precious place and the actions I decided to
  take to search it were to protect what is so special and vital about the
  place.  It has a unique population.  It has 20 lifers; it has 29 prisoners
  serving in excess of 18 years; a lot of those prisoners have very considerable
  terms to do and when I received intelligence that they may be involved in
  possibly very serious criminal activity, both within and without the
  establishment, I felt I had no choice but to go in and take the actions I did. 
  All of those were intended to protect Blantyre House (which you recognise has
  been very, very special indeed) in terms of doing a quite unique job in
  resettlement.  I was entirely convinced if something very serious had happened
  at Blantyre, as has in the past, that would be a very quick way to destroy
  local public confidence (and I live very near to the establishment) and to
  destroy parliamentary and ministerial confidence in what we are doing at
  Blantyre.
        5.    Could you answer the question about the drug tests of the
  inmates?
        (Mr Narey)  One of the worries we had about Blantyre, very relevant to
  the main business of today, was that while delighted to see the zero level of
  MDT tests there, some intelligence (which I can now say is part of the
  intelligence which proved unfounded) suggested that those tests might not have
  been properly administered.  We tested all prisoners on that evening.  One
  prisoner refused to give a sample, which I take is an indication that he had
  taken drugs; one prisoner had a significantly diluted sample; all other
  prisoners tested negative.  So that part of the operation I was very relieved
  did show that my confidence in the drug regime of Blantyre was fully placed.
        6.    It is the case, is it not, that last year it had the lowest rate
  of positive response at Blantyre - 0.7 per cent?
        (Mr Narey)  It did, Chairman.  It has, of course, a very carefully
  selected population, all of whom sign up to a contract and a regime of
  voluntary testing.  There is no doubt at all, that is one of the many things
  which Blantyre does exceptionally well.
        7.    I think this is what the Minister said - there is no question,
  as far as the Prison Service is concerned, of trying to change the ethos of
  Blantyre House?
        (Mr Narey)  None whatsoever on my part.  The Minister has made it very
  plain to me that he wants the Service to do much more in terms of developing
  resettlement, in joining up our regimes to the probation and community
  provision.  Blantyre, Kirklevington and Latchmere are three resettlement
  prisons and are a very precious part of that.
        8.    Where we stand at the moment - there are no criminal charges
  which have been made to date?
        (Mr Narey)  That is correct.
        9.    At some stage there will be a report, which I assume will go to
  the Minister?
        (Mr Narey)  That is correct.
        10.      Its publication, presumably, will have to depend on whether or
  not there are criminal charges?
        (Mr Boateng)   Chairman, subject to your views on the matter, which of
  course we will be very happy to receive, what I propose to do at the
  conclusion of the criminal investigation - and, of course, subject to any
  outstanding prosecutions, and the usual legal precautions that have to be
  taken in order to ensure a fair trial - it would be my intention to submit a
  confidential memorandum to you and to the Committee about the whole incident.
        11.      That is very kind of you, thank you.  There are reports that five
  inmates were taken from Blantyre House to Maidstone Prison, I think?
        (Mr Narey)  To Elmley Prison, I believe.
        12.      Can you say why they were removed?
        (Mr Narey)  Two of them were, the prisoner who had a positive test but
  was diluted, and the other was the person who refused to take a test.  The
  others were the subject of the intelligence gathered both from the police and
  other prisoners about their involvement in potentially illegal activities
  while in Blantyre.
  
                              Mr Howarth
        13.      Mr Narey, you mentioned you were getting intelligence over a
  period of time regarding serious breaches at Blantyre House.  What action did
  you take to discuss that with the Governor and senior staff there in order to
  eliminate the problem?  Was it really necessary to send in 100 police
  officers, according to the report, including members of the Control and
  Restraint Team to smash down doors?  Was this the way to do it?
        (Mr Narey)  The intelligence over a period of time was discussed at
  length with the Governor.  I cannot discuss (for the reasons the Minister has
  stated) the very special nature of the more recent intelligence which led us
  to take the quite extraordinary action that we did.  I think the worth of our
  doing that is proven by the quite frightening amount of contraband material
  we found, which included 25 banking credit cards, not held legally, cameras,
  passports, driving licences in forged names, visiting orders for other prisons
  and escape equipment, which would have meant that an individual there fairly
  easily could have effected his escape.  It showed that our concern for the
  intelligence we had, about a certain balance being lost somewhat between the
  security requirements of the prison and its very commendable emphasis on
  resettlement, was justified.
        14.      No-one would deny the seriousness of what apparently was going
  on there, but could there not have been other ways of establishing where the
  contraband was without this raid and the smashing down of prison doors and so
  on?
        (Mr Narey)  I do not believe so, Mr Howarth.  It was a very difficult
  decision for me to take personally - the Governor is a personal friend - but
  it was my view, having taken full account of the intelligence, that had we
  moved the Governor (who was due for a move anyway) and then conducted the
  search at a later date there may have been certain criminals there who would
  have ceased certain activities; and certainly the police view was that we
  should go in immediately.  As regards the publicity about doors being broken
  down - there were areas of the prison where keys were not available and that
  should not be the case.  The total amount of damage, I might say, is in the
  region of œ400; and that meant we could be absolutely sure that every area of
  that prison had been searched.  I might mention that the last time the prison
  was properly searched drugs were found not hidden in a prison cell, where they
  are frequently not hidden, but hidden in a health care centre.  That was one
  of the areas in which we had to gain access.
        15.      I think you know the Committee was very impressed on its visit
  to Blantyre.  We particularly noted the confidence which the visitors had in
  the Governor himself.  I wonder if you can assure us, notwithstanding the
  difficulties that have recently occurred, there will be firms steps taken by
  the Prison Service to continue the ethos of Blantyre House under the previous
  Governor?  There were suggestions that somehow he was out of line with Prison
  Service thinking and, therefore, this might be a good moment to quash this
  kind of development and stop it being replicated elsewhere in the country?
        (Mr Narey)  I can give you that assurance unequivocally.  The brief given
  to the new Governor is that he is to reassert the proper balance of security
  but retain and exploit all that is good about Blantyre, all that appears to
  have worked in settling prisoners effectively.
  
                               Chairman
        16.      I am still puzzled as to why you felt it necessary to remove both
  the Governor and the Deputy when that search, of course, could have been
  carried out with them still in place?
        (Mr Narey)  Mr Chairman, we did not remove the Deputy Governor.  We
  removed the Governor, Mr McLennan-Murray and a governor grade 5.  The Deputy
  Governor remains in post.  The reason we did that I cannot fully divulge, but
  I am confident we will be able to do so in the confidential memorandum.
  
                              Mr Howarth
        17.      The point about the confidential memorandum, I can well
  understand what the Minister is saying given his experience as a lawyer as to
  why he cannot publicly give us a report whilst prosecutions may well be
  pending.  If he is going to give us a confidential report, may I suggest he
  might say ways in which he might be able to deliver that to us in advance of
  prosecutions taking place, otherwise we will not see a report this side of the
  year 2003.
        (Mr Boateng)   I do not think it is quite as bad as that, Mr Howarth. 
  We are, after all, taking measures to speed up the Criminal Justice System. 
  Let me just say, it would be my intention to be as open with the Committee as
  soon as I can be.  If that means an interim memorandum earlier, followed by
  a fuller report later, then that is the course we will take.  I am anxious
  that the Committee should have the full information.
  
                               Mr Linton
        18.      Could I ask a question about the background to this.  In a report
  in the Observer it says the Governor, Mr McLennan-Murray, and his Deputy had
  been transferred in a move widely interpreted as a criticism of their
  progressive methods.  We found a lot to praise about their methods - their
  philosophy if you like.  Is it purely a criticism of the vigilance with which
  they were enforcing their own regime; or is it in any sense a criticism of the
  regime or the philosophy behind it?
        (Mr Narey)  It is absolutely the former, Mr Linton.  The regime at
  Blantyre is very precious to me and I want to preserve it.  I believe, and
  have for some time and expressed my reservations to the Board of Visitors a
  year ago, I wrote a letter in the Commissioner's book at the prison about my
  anxiety that there had been a certain loss in that balance.  I felt absolutely
  confident that if some very serious crime had occurred, as a result of
  activities taking place either within Blantyre House or by prisoners on
  temporary release, that would be a very quick way to destroy what we have
  there, and at Kirklevington and at Latchmere House.
        19.      You do agree with the particular system they use at
  Blantyre House for resettlement, essentially trusting the prisoners but being
  merciless if the trust is betrayed, and that is a good way of resettling
  prisons?
        (Mr Narey)  It is a good way, although I do have some anxieties about the
  level of supervision of the temporary release procedures.  Blantyre is not
  best placed geographically.  Kirklevington, for example, a very similar prison
  is in industrial Teesside; the prisoners work very close to the prison; staff
  are able to get out and check they are there and working properly much more
  frequently.  I believe the Governor has erred in allowing some work placements
  to take place far too far away from the establishment - which has meant, for
  example, some prisoners returning from work placements in the early hours of
  the morning.
  
                               Chairman
        20.      Presumably you are aware that I sponsored one of the prisoners
  who took part in the London Marathon.  I am very happy to report that he did
  complete it but it took longer than he hoped but he did come back as well!
        (Mr Boateng)   Have you sent the money yet!
        Chairman:   I have sent œ10 and was very happy to pay it!
  
                               Mr Cawsey
        21.      I want to begin our questions on the issue this morning on
  alternatives to custody for drug-related offending.  You will know from the
  Report this Committee did that we spoke of and welcomed the growth in arrest
  referral schemes - although we note they mean different things in different
  areas.  We also note the Government intends to make arrest referral schemes
  available in every custody suite by 2002.  I am interested to know what
  progress is being made for that target.  Do you know what proportion of police
  services are currently operating such schemes, and are you assessing their
  effectiveness?
        (Mr Boateng)   We are making good progress in that regard.  We know that
  arrest referral schemes do hold out real prospects for gain where it is
  possible to ensure that the offender actually has, as a result of referral,
  a package of treatment and interventions built around them that enables them
  to effectively address their habit.  40 out of the 43 forces have been
  involved in a œ20 million joint funding initiative for arrest referral schemes
  of this nature; and we are quite confident that the remaining ones will soon
  be on board.  I saw for myself recently in Newham a first-rate example of a
  scheme in which social workers/health workers are amongst the team working in
  the custody suite.  It is possible immediately the suspect or offender comes
  into custody to begin the process of assessment, and to make an input into the
  final determination.  It is working and we have made available considerable
  resources to roll it out.
        22.      One of the things that struck me was the fact that it can be as
  a little as, "Here's a leaflet saying, 'Here are some relevant agencies in the
  locality which you can go to, and then you can move through a whole range of
  options'".  What will your Department be doing to ensure that an arrest
  referral scheme has a range of options, and it is not just simply, "Look, we
  have a pile of leaflets on the custody desk, that means we can say we're in
  the scheme"?
        (Mr Boateng)   I was going to say, I myself, whilst recognising the value
  of printed information, am dubious about the impact of the leaflet/pack
  mentality.  What we are doing is ensuring, not least in our work with
  Keith Halliwell and his team, that the back-up is there from the DATs and that
  we have in place the sort of partnerships between the Criminal Justice
  Agencies locally and health agencies locally that have not been there in the
  past, and is still in some areas not as close as we would want to see. 
  I would not want to give the Committee the impression that there is not a way
  to go.  There is still a way to go, but I think some real progress has been
  made.
        23.      Can I move on to Drug Treatment and Testing Orders which, as you
  know, came from the Crime and Disorder Act.  We understand there has been a
  pilot scheme in three areas and they finished at the end of March this year. 
  Of 180 Orders made, about one-third had to be revoked.  We also understand
  that other analysis shows this rate may be closer to 50 per cent. when it is
  rolled out.  Bearing in mind that figure, how successful do you believe the
  piloting of these Orders would be, and not just the fact they have been
  revoked or breached, but also how they were taken up by courts and what effect
  they then have on the offending?
        (Mr Boateng)   The pilots are being independently evaluated by South Bank
  University for the Home Office, and I think that evaluation is very important. 
  One of the great dangers in this area, as you and the Committee are well
  aware, is "anecdotalism"; in which one seizes on anecdotes, be they positive
  or negative, and then draws conclusions from them and uses them as the motor
  of policies.  One has to avoid that, and rigorous evaluation is important. 
  The interim evaluation report, however, suggests in relation to the pilots
  that offenders' weekly spend on drugs fell from œ400 to œ30 on average. 
  Chairman, in terms of its impact on crime and offending, that is very
  considerable, and does give one good cause for hope in terms of the final
  outcome of the evaluation.  Overall the impact is very positive both on
  offending and on expenditure on illegal drugs - a marked reduction in both. 
  Therefore (and I am happy to use this opportunity to share this announcement
  with the Committee today) we have decided to allow the Probation Service and
  their partner treatment agencies the maximum time to prepare for the roll-out
  of DTTOs by enabling them to proceed in order to ensure that we meet our
  targets in this area.  As from 1 October, all areas in England and Wales will
  be able to proceed to deliver Drug Treatment and Testing Orders.  My Rt Hon
  friend will also be making this announcement today to the Probation Service
  Conference.  It is good news and I believe they have a good contribution to
  make.
        24.      I understand the full evaluation is likely to be in July?  The
  Home Secretary said that will be published at that stage?
        (Mr Boateng)   It will be, but we think it is important they should have
  time to prepare.  We expect that over 6,000 DTTOs will be made in a full year. 
  We have made available œ18 million for treatment this year, and œ36 million
  for treatment next.
        25.      One of the things about the Crime and Disorder Act (and the Anti-
  social Behaviour Order was one, and this may well be another one) is that
  there was a feeling of frustration that this was an important new power we
  hoped would make a great deal of difference and then there seemed to be a
  state of reluctance to actually use it.  Were the pilots disappointing or
  satisfactory in the amount Courts actually made use of them in those pilot
  areas?
        (Mr Boateng)   I have some of the detail in relation to the pilot areas
  in Croydon, Liverpool and Gloucestershire here.  I think that the Courts
  actually did welcome them.  Magistrates were involved in terms of their
  training in the capacity that DTTOs both required and held out in terms of
  making an impact in this area - required from the local Health Service.  I do
  think, as you will be aware and as the Committee is aware, they are capacity
  issues around DTTOs which I do not think we ought to gloss over, and we do
  not.  The courts did take them up.  I visited Liverpool and saw for myself
  there how it was working in practice.  Without slipping into anecdotage, I was
  heartened by the response both of magistrates, the Criminal Justice System as
  a whole but also the sort of joint work that had developed (not without its
  initial teething problems, undoubtedly) between the Probation Service and the
  Health Service.
        26.      If I could move on to the current Bill, the Criminal Justice and
  Court Services Bill - clearly that is designed to try to address this link
  between drugs and crime.  You, again, give it important new powers.  We
  understand it is planned that we will have pilots in early 2001.  With the
  benefit of hindsight with the legislation the Government has already passed
  in the pilots that have taken place with other powers, how optimistic are you
  that the powers in this new Bill will actually succeed in breaking the link
  between drug misuse and crime?
        (Mr Boateng)   I am confident that there is a sufficient body of evidence
  out there to justify us seeking the powers that we have sought from
  Parliament.  I am confident that we will be able to establish the pilots on
  schedule.  Having said that, I do think it is important - and we had quite a
  useful discussion in Committee about this - that in selecting the pilot areas
  and in establishing the pilots we do create a space for us to learn lessons
  about what does work and what does not work as well, and even to take risks
  that some things might not work at all.  I am quite confident that the Orders
  and the powers have a role and it will be a beneficial one, but I think we
  need to ensure that we evaluate the pilots robustly; and we need to allow (and
  will be seeking this in consultation with the relevant agencies as we get the
  pilots in place) a certain amount of variation as between various pilot areas
  so we can work out what does work better than others.  I do not want to be
  overly prescriptive from the start.
        27.      Cautiously optimistic?
        (Mr Boateng)   Yes.
        28.      When this Committee did its Report one of the items it commended
  to your Department was a suggestion from the Magistrates' Association that
  short custodial sentences for drug-related crimes should be combined with a
  requirement to receive treatment in the community on their release, and yet
  this was not addressed in the Government's response to the Committee.  Was
  there any reason for that?
        (Mr Boateng)   We recognise the forces of what the Committee commended
  to us and this proposal, and it is the sort of proposal that I would expect
  to be explored in the course of the sentencing review which my Rt Hon friend
  the Home Secretary announced by way of written answer to the House today;
  because there is and are advantages, we know, in being able to ensure that a
  custodial penalty is backed up by the rigours of supervision and intervention
  in the community.  I do expect the sentencing review to take into account that
  proposal.  In the meantime, of course, we are working, as part of the
  operation of CARATs, within the Prison Service in order to ensure that all
  prisoners, even those serving short sentences, have access to some help whilst 
  they are in prison.  It will be possible, hopefully, to build on that in order
  to ensure that there is the follow-through into the community.
        29.      The fact it was not in your official response to us does not mean
  it has been excluded?
        (Mr Boateng)   No, it does not mean it has been excluded - on the
  contrary.
  
                              Mr Howarth
        30.      Minister, can we turn to the Prison Service Drugs Strategy and
  consider a number of general points.  By way of background, can I just remind
  you of the findings of a report commissioned by the Prison Service and
  Probation Service from the University of Surrey School of Human Sciences
  findings published at the end of March.  It does set out just the magnitude
  of the task we face, because the researchers found that most of the prisoners
  surveyed had experienced serious drug problems prior to imprisonment, spending
  an average of œ550 a week to support their habit; that half of the prisoners
  were offered help to obtain treatment on release but only 11 per cent. had a
  fixed appointment with a drug agency.  A further finding was that four months
  after release 86 per cent. reported using some form of drug.  I set that out,
  Minister, so we can all be reminded of the magnitude of the task.  Can I deal
  with the resources that your Department has made available.  The Comprehensive
  Spending Review provided for a further œ76 million to be allocated between
  1999 and 2002 bringing the total to a very substantial œ101.4 million over
  that three-year period.  I understand that the Prison Service has made a
  further bid for another œ88 million from 2001 to 2004, and that the Prison
  Service admitted that its original bid of œ76 million was prepared "without
  the benefit of a needs analysis and were based largely on estimates".  There
  is a feeling around that these figures were plucked out of the air, and these
  are very substantial amounts of money.  Are you satisfied that they are being
  properly accounted for, notwithstanding it appears you do not yet have full
  monitoring systems in place?
        (Mr Boateng)   I am going to ask the Director General to deal with the
  specifics of the accounting system.  If I can just share with you one response
  to the University of Surrey's research, and then just some brief remarks on
  central funding.  It was a very interesting and important piece of research. 
  As you say, four months after release 86 per cent. indicating that they were
  using some form of drug; about half of that using heroin every day.  What was
  equally interesting, however, was that this did represent a reduction of some
  20 percentage points from 66 per cent. prior to imprisonment to 45 per cent.
  afterwards.  That is a real gain, given that in spending terms that means that
  spending on drugs was halved to about œ275 a week.  In terms of acquisitive
  crime that would be embarked upon in order to feed that habit, that is a gain. 
  It is also significant that, whilst the numbers who actually fixed an
  appointment with a drug agency were relatively small, to go back to the point
  that Mr Cawsey was making in relation to the referral schemes, there is a
  breadth of other support and assistance available and most were given some
  form of help - even though some of it was indirect.  There were some hopeful
  things coming out of the Surrey School of Human Sciences.
        31.      Minister, my remarks were not intended to put you on the
  defensive; they were merely so that we could all be quite clear about what we
  were facing.
        (Mr Boateng)   Quite so.  If we then turn from that to the spending:  in
  the three year period 1999 to 2002 the Prison Service is going to be devoting
  œ101.4 million of central funding - 93 per cent. of this (and this is
  significant) devolved to the operational line.  This is money which is
  reaching the front line, and reaching the places where it has to be if it is
  going to make a difference to the life of prisoners, after prison and in
  prison.  We are monitoring it closely.  It is a beginning.  We believe that
  more will be necessary, but I think we are justified in allocating the money
  we have justified, and we would not have been justified on the evidence base
  we had before it seems to me of devolving any greatly increased sums.  There
  is a developing evidence base now that is suggesting we should be bidding for
  more, and we are.  I will ask the Director General to outline to you some of
  the specifics we are doing in the prisons to make sure the money is well
  spent.
        (Mr Narey)  You are quite right, Mr Howarth, when we were originally
  bidding for this money we had to make very quick estimates of what we believed
  we needed; and simultaneously we were also bidding for money for new
  investment in education and in offending behaviour programmes.  The
  œ76 million we got from the CSR we have I think been able to make significant
  progress on since then.  I put an emphasis on spending that money wisely
  rather than quickly.  Indeed, on the financial year just finished we have
  underspent as a consequence of that by a small amount of money but I think we
  have put the money to prudent use.  We have established big gains on voluntary
  testing; put quite a lot of it into supply reduction, which has been at the
  foundation for the Strategy; there are 34 new treatment programmes, all but
  three of which have now started; and four new therapeutic communities which
  were started before the end of the year.  Having established that, we now have
  a firm base, hopefully, depending on the outcome of the Spending Review, for
  doing rather more.  I think it was very important to take the roll-out of this
  new Strategy very, very carefully.  I think it would have been very, very easy
  to squander this money and we have been very careful not to do so.
        32.      You are absolutely right, and it is our understanding that even
  the National Audit Office is not clear where the money is being spent.  You
  have acknowledged that systems are not yet in place for the monitoring.  Can
  you tell us when you expect those systems to be put in place.  It is a
  substantial amount of money and I am sure we welcome the fact that you are
  being cautious about spending it, but the Committee will want to know, quite
  apart from other Committees like Public Accounts, just how effectively this
  money is being spent, and when will those monitoring systems finally be put
  in place?
        (Mr Narey)  First of all, Mr Howarth, I am confident I will be able to
  demonstrate to the NAO where the money has gone and what it has been spent on. 
  It is true that we are not yet fully up to speed with getting performance
  reporting arrangements that we need, to check not only how the money is being
  spent but, more importantly, the outcomes of that expenditure.  We are working
  on those very quickly now, having got the main part of the Strategy
  implemented.  I certainly hope we have those by the end of this financial year
  so we will be able to use them next year.
        (Mr Boateng)   One of the best safeguards in this it seems to me is to
  ensure that we get the right procurement process, because if you get that
  right then you have got a much better chance of ensuring that you are able
  subsequently to demonstrate cost effectiveness and value for money.  The
  Prison Service has taken some considerable care in getting that right. 
  Because this is in some ways a new market that has been created in drug
  treatment services, it is a fairly complex and time consuming operation to get
  a proper procurement process in place.  We have done that, even though it has
  meant in some areas a delay.  I think it is that, linked with the fact, going
  back to the point we were making earlier on, about capacity.  Some agencies
  have experience, and I think will continue to experience, and I found this
  when I was talking to people who were involved in CARATs from the voluntary
  sector at Wormwood Scrubs, and shared with me concerns about the recruitment
  of suitably qualified staff.  That has led in some areas to delay and all of
  that has contributed to the underspend on treatment services of œ5.64 million. 
  I would rather us underspend in that way than for the process to be
  discredited by the sort of approach of "let a thousand flowers bloom" and then
  we discover too much later by way of weeds and cankers.
        33.      I will come back to the question of recruitment of drug workers. 
  Can I ask a very quick question and invite a quick answer in terms of the 93
  per cent devolved down.  Are you satisfied that this would be consistently
  applied across the prison estate; in other words the right prisons are getting
  the right amount of money to deal with the problems that they face?
        (Mr Boateng)   I am, but I have wider and continuing concerns about the
  prison funding allocation because I have a wider agenda that is designed to
  ensure that we incentivise good practice and good performance.  I do not
  regard prison funding and the basis upon which funding is allocated as being
  of itself satisfactory, but within the current context, yes, I am satisfied.
        (Mr Narey)  I am certainly satisfied.  It is not perfect but I think it
  is significant that in the bid we made in the spending review for a further
  œ18 million it is largely directed to building up the schemes where we have
  currently put them in place.  We have not found many gaps in the distribution
  for example of rehab classes.  We do think we have got a comprehensive
  coverage.  We have got an active number of therapeutic communities.  Much of
  the money will be used to increase the throughput through those schemes which
  we do think we have got more or less in the right place.  There are clearly
  some small areas where I think we need to fill some gaps, but broadly I am
  very pleased with the way we have spent the money.
        34.      There are claims that there is an inconsistency in the way that
  the policy itself, let alone the resources, is being delivered across the
  prison estate.  Indeed, there are differences even in understanding the
  strategy, let alone the question of its implementation, and suggestions that
  there is a failure to provide central direction to ensure equivalency of
  provision.  Taking the point about assessing the various schemes that are on
  offer, there does appear to be a very wide variation between different prisons
  on the implementation of the strategy if you take one issue alone, which is
  drug dogs.
        (Mr Narey)  I think we have made a lot of progress on consistency
  certainly since I last spoke to the Committee.  We now have all our area drug
  co-ordinator posts in place.  We have just revised our boundaries incidentally
  so that they are now coterminous with police/CPS boundaries so we can make
  much better links to the community.  We have a national specification now for
  treatment services.  All our treatment services have to abide by that
  specification.  We have a national procurement process and all our acute
  services, even within two years, will have to gain accreditation from the
  independent Joint Prison/Probation Accreditation Panel to show that not only
  do they reduce drug misuse but that they reduce crime.
        35.      Drawing on my experience of spending three days in Dartmoor
  Prison, one of the things that I found very interesting there was the
  dedicated search team.  I thought they were absolutely superb, hugely
  professional, extremely well motivated.  I would like to put in a suggestion
  that what they do there could be replicated across the country.
        (Mr Boateng)   I think that is very helpful.  There is no doubt that
  professionally conducted searches, searches that can be conducted in a way,
  as you witnessed yourself, that does not alienate the prison population but
  is nevertheless rigorous and focused, do have a very important role to play,
  as do dogs.  The Director General and I need no persuasion as to the value of
  both passive and active dogs.  It is the first question that I always ask on
  visiting any prison: what the plans are, if there are not any dogs around, and
  there is no doubt that they do make a difference.  The mere fact that there
  is a dog at the door deters people who are otherwise minded to bring in drugs. 
  We want more of them and we are pushing for that.
        36.      Minister, can I turn to alcohol abuse and mental health because
  it was drawn to our attention by a number of people making representations to
  us, clearly the Royal College of Psychiatrists, that tackling alcohol misuse
  is also a severe problem.  I wonder if you could tell us what developments you
  are able to report towards the creation of an alcohol strategy to parallel the
  drug strategy because in your answer to us you merely said that the Government
  "remains committed to the creation of an alcohol strategy to parallel the drug
  strategy".  Can you tell us how it is going?
        (Mr Boateng)   Our priority has had to be to put in place the new drug
  treatment services funded from the CSR.  Clinical detoxification is available
  for alcohol.  The treatment regime recommended by the service is in line with
  that offered to NHS patients.  In 1998/99 6,800-plus prisoners completed
  alcohol detoxification courses.  It is perfectly true however that in the same
  period 24,654 completed drug detoxification courses.  There will be some
  benefit to people with alcohol problems from engaging with the new programmes
  available for people with drugs, but experience tells me that within the NHS,
  where I had previous responsibility for mental health problems and saw all too
  often those mental health problems were underpinned, overlaid, varied, by
  drugs or alcohol problems mixed, there does remain considerable scope for
  further work in this area.  The Home Office itself is working very
  constructively now with St Mungo and others on the issue of detoxification in
  terms of the wider community, but we still have a way to go in the Prison
  Service in relation to alcohol abuse.  I would not pretend otherwise.
        37.      Perhaps you can keep us posted on that.
        (Mr Boateng)   Yes, certainly.
        Mr Howarth: The next general issue, Minister, is the question of
  prison regimes.  As you will know the key performance indicator for purposeful
  activities has fallen from over 26 hours per week in 1994/95 to under 23 hours
  in 1998/99.  When this Committee visited Winston Green I think it was, in
  Birmingham, in your constituency, Chairman -----
        Chairman:   Next door.
  
                              Mr Howarth
        38.      ----- 44 per cent of prisoners were locked up for 22 hours or
  more on the day of the visit.  Can you tell us what the performance was
  against the target for purposeful activity in 1999/00?  Do you share the view
  which I think is overwhelming on this Committee that we believe that more
  purposeful activity would be a very important factor in reducing drug abuse?
        (Mr Boateng)   I do think purposeful activity is important.  I think it
  is also important, and it is something I know this Committee has looked at and
  individual members on it have looked and certainly all those who have had the
  responsibility that I currently hold have this very much in mind, that we get
  a definition of purposeful activity that is more suitable for the purpose and
  more useful, because currently within the basket of purposeful activity there
  is a wide range of actions, not all of which usefully belong.  In terms of
  your specific question on 1990/2000, the target was 24 hours.  We achieved
  23.2 hours, so again we are getting there.  We are also getting better at
  actually quantifying and calculating those hours more accurately.  The Prison
  Service is itself doubtful about the 26 hour figure as to whether or not we
  did actually ever in reality achieve that.  We are better at calculating the
  hours spent on purposeful activity.  I do not pretend that we are satisfied
  with the existing levels.  I wonder if I could ask the Director General to
  give you some examples of where our concerns lie in relation to the definition
  and how we would like to take that issue forward.  It is something that the
  Committee might well have a view on and it would help us if you were to
  express that view at some time.
        (Mr Narey)  First of all, Mr Howarth, I share absolutely your belief
  about the link between purposeful activity and reducing drug misuse; an active
  prison is a much better prison.  The truth is that I could have delivered for
  the Minister this year a KPI of 24 hours but I took advice from the Minister
  very early in this year and he assured me that we were right not to distort
  behaviour simply to meet the KPI.  For example, we have put a much greater
  emphasis on drug treatment programmes and sending prisoners to the gymnasium. 
  The gymnasium is not listed as a purposeful activity.  It is very useful in
  order and control terms but it does nothing to reduce offending.  We have put
  a much greater emphasis on basic skills education, which means smaller class
  sizes than in for example recreational art, and we have put a much greater
  emphasis on developing and expanding the number of offending behaviour
  programmes rather than sending people to workshops.  The gymnasium does not
  make prisoners more employable, and although we are trying to get workshops
  much more allied now to providing prisoners with qualifications such as NVQs,
  to be frank, a lot of our workshop activity does not replicate real work and
  does little if nothing to make prisoners more employable.  Our emphasis this
  year has been to concentrate on the things which will make a real difference
  in reducing offending behaviour, even if that has meant that we have narrowly
  missed the KPI on purposeful activity which would have been very easy to
  fulfil just by my filling workshops even though there was not much work.
        39.      We are not interested in you doing things to skew the figures in
  the right direction.  Surely it is monstrous that we spend œ25,000 a year
  locking people up who have got no basic skills.  I am pleased to hear that you
  are concentrating on that problem.  But why cannot we have more of this?  Is
  it a shortage of money?  Is it a shortage of people able to carry out these
  programmes?  I think this is the most serious issue facing the Prison Service. 
  Banging these people up without the equivalent of any skills to go out with
  and get a job afterwards is simply a recipe for disaster.
        (Mr Boateng)   I agree with you wholeheartedly, which is why we have put,
  despite some criticism in some quarters, a new emphasis on basic numeracy and
  literacy skills.  Sixty per cent I think of our prison population have levels
  of numeracy and literacy that disqualify them from 96 per cent of all jobs. 
  We had to address that and we have got some œ26 million of new money that is
  being applied to basic numeracy and literacy skills and we did achieve 32,000
  literacy and numeracy qualifications in the last year.  That means a lot to
  people who in some instances have their first opportunity for sustained
  education when they are in prison.  It is an indictment of our society and
  aspects of it, but it is the truth.  We do need, and we are determined to win,
  the resources that are necessary for that.  We are getting more resources on
  line and we are getting better too, as the Director General has indicated, at
  seeing opportunities within a workshop context for NVQs and for addressing
  some of those basic numeracy and literacy deficits that would otherwise go
  unaddressed.  I am very committed to the notion of work within prisons.  I
  think it is very important.  I think it needs to be made as meaningful as
  possible.  It should be capable of proper remuneration, and then we need to
  look from that at ways of ensuring that that remuneration can make some
  contribution in turn to the costs of their upkeep and also some contribution
  to the harm suffered by their victims.  It is something that I am very
  committed to and the Home Secretary is very committed to, and we are working
  with the Director General on this particular area and I hope we are going to
  be coming forward with some changes in order to ensure that we do make the
  best of the opportunities that do exist for work, for preparation for gainful
  employment.
        40.      We will be monitoring that particular aspect of your policy,
  Minister.  Can I turn to the question of outside workers employed to assist
  in the drug programme?  Originally I gather that it was the responsibility of
  governors to determine whether ex-offenders could be employed in these
  programmes but now that resources are concentrated on prison clusters there
  is a more uniform policy being imposed.  We did see at Blantyre House the
  advantage of having the experience, if one can put it that way, of ex-
  offenders, ex-convicts, coming back and contributing to the educational
  process.  I wonder if you could tell us about the policy of excluding these
  people from the Prison Service who nevertheless are some of the most effective
  counsellors?
        (Mr Boateng)   I will ask the Director General to reply on the
  operational developments in this area but I do have something to say on the
  policy matter.
        (Mr Narey)  You are right, Mr Howarth.  We previously left this to the
  discretion of local governors as we do with a lot of security decisions which
  have to be taken in line with local circumstances.  I was very anxious, and
  the Minister was very supportive of our need, to deliver real credibility in
  the drug treatment and training and that is why I issued instructions on the
  basis on which those people who have had previous convictions or have served
  custodial sentences could work in prisons.  We will take somebody who has had
  a conviction for drug related crimes but not if that is for importation or for
  drug pushing, and we will not take anyone who has not been out of prison for
  five years.  That has meant that we have been able to increase the number of
  workers from those backgrounds and certainly I was at the Verne Prison in
  Portland recently and at Lancaster Castle on Thursday talking to prisoners on
  drug treatment programmes.  There is no doubt at all that their faith and
  belief in the treatment that they are undertaking is hugely increased by the
  fact that the guy who is leading them has had drug problems himself, has been
  inside himself, and knows how difficult it is to break the habit.
        (Mr Boateng)   My response to your question, Mr Howarth, is that I adopt
  wholeheartedly the approach taken by the Director General in relation to this
  matter.  I think it was important that we issued guidelines centrally in this
  area because the discrepancies between the various institutions was sending
  sometimes a wrong message and sometimes a confused message.  I think we have
  now pretty well got the balance right between the need to ensure that yes,
  those engaged in the work do have credibility; that is important, and
  undoubtedly ex-addicts and ex-offenders contribute to the credibility of the
  programme as a whole.  I do not go along with the view that you have to be an
  ex-addict or an ex-offender in order to work well in this area.  I do not
  think the evidence backs that up, but undoubtedly there is a role both in the
  development and in the delivery of programmes for people with that experience. 
  I do however have to balance that always with issues around security.  At the
  end of the day one should not under-estimate the capacity of people to use the
  system in a way that would undermine security, particularly in the drugs area,
  whereas I know the Committee appreciates that it is important to maintain a
  very clear and focused regime against drugs if we are to make the gains that
  I believe we can demonstrate.
  
                              Mr Winnick
        41.      I want to ask you, Minister, about reducing the supply of drugs. 
  Before I do can I ask you if you accept that the Chief Inspector of Prisons
  has drawn attention on a number of occasions to drug barons?  You accept my
  question, that the Chief Inspector has a very keen interest in this matter?
        (Mr Boateng)   The Chief Inspector and I have a very close working
  relationship.  I see him regularly.  He has expressed his views and concerns
  in this area to me on a number of occasions.
        42.      I want to ask you this question about the Chief Inspector.  I
  have seen reports, as I am sure my colleagues have done, that the post may be
  abolished, that is, of the Chief Inspector of Prisons, and amalgamated with
  the Probation Service.  Can I tell you, Minister, that there is a feeling that
  perhaps Sir David has got on the wrong side of the Home Office and there is
  the possibility of his being told that his contract is not being renewed?  Is
  there any foundation for that whatsoever?
        (Mr Boateng)   Sir David has a very close working relationship with me,
  a close and constructive working relationship with all Ministers, and I hold
  his advice in very high esteem.  He has, as you will be aware, expressed views
  robustly and trenchantly in the past.  So far as I am concerned I welcome that
  robustness.  That is what the Inspector is there to do.  I can assure the
  Committee that whatever they may or may not have read in the newspapers, any
  decisions that may be made in the future about the shape and content and form
  of the Inspectorate will not in any way be based on personal experience of any
  one inspector in relation to either the Probation Service or the Prison
  Service.  We will not in any way seek to water down the independence and the
  necessary robustness of the Inspectorate's function.
        43.      Unkind people may say that is what would be expected from you,
  Minister, that you would indeed make the point if there was to be any change
  that it would not be based on Sir David's position.
        (Mr Boateng)   I can go further, Mr Winnick.  I can say that any change
  will be subject to the fullest consultation and the views of your Committee,
  the views of other interested persons, will of course be welcome in that.
  There are some very key issues about how best you ensure that prisons and
  probations work closely together within that correctional umbrella.  I think
  the Committee has expressed interest in, for instance, the development of the
  Ombudsman service in a way that ensures that prisons and probation get the
  best from what an Ombudsman service might be able to deliver.  Similarly, one
  wants to ensure that prisons and probation in terms of the Inspectorate
  function are also as well served structurally as they might be.  There are a
  number of options and we would intend in due course to consult on all of them.
        44.      From what you said clearly much thought is being given to a
  possible amalgamation so those press stories seem to have some foundation of
  truth.  You and your colleagues and the Home Secretary, Minister, welcome the
  fact that Sir David goes about his job in a robust fashion and makes remarks
  and comments which he considers appropriate as Chief Inspector of Prisons?
        (Mr Boateng)   I hope I have made that abundantly clear and I am only too
  happy to reiterate it.
        45.      Do you accept, Minister, that this Committee, and I believe,
  Chairman, I would be right in saying "this Committee", and many people
  concerned with the Prison Service deeply admire the way Sir David goes about
  his job?
        (Mr Boateng)   I am delighted that the exercise of his role and functions
  has the endorsement of the Committee.
        46.      In our previous report we expressed concern about the increase
  in heroin finds in prison and we quoted some figures from 678 in 1995 to 1,009
  in 1998.  Your predecessor, George Howarth, said that the increasing number
  of hard drugs finds shows that the Prison Service is detecting hard drugs
  before they are used.  The Committee drew the somewhat different conclusion
  that more hard drugs are entering prison.  What are the latest figures for
  heroin finds and can we work on the basis that they are being reduced?
        (Mr Boateng)   Let me first of all say that I regard vigilance and a
  degree of success in identifying the presence of drugs as being very much what
  I would expect from the service working at its best.  But I would also expect,
  and I know the Committee will endorse, that we step up our activity in terms
  of preventing the drugs coming in in the first place.  That is why we have
  introduced as from April of last year new sanctions for visitors and prisoners
  caught in smuggling in drugs, including the banning of visitors and the
  imposition of closed visits.  That is why we have increased CCTV in areas. 
  I have seen some of these cameras in operation and what is remarkable is their
  usefulness in terms of the detail they can pick up, their usefulness in terms
  of evidential and deterrence value, but it is also interesting to note the
  degree of ingenuity used by those determined to bring drugs into premises. 
  It is enough to try the patience of Job when you see officers exercising what
  all of us would think was common compassion in terms of a visit in relation
  to contact between children and between partners, and you find that abused. 
  There are real concerns there but so far as the figures are concerned, in the
  first four months of this year there were 388 heroin finds, compared with 362
  last year.
        47.      The last four months?
        (Mr Boateng)   In the same period last year.
        48.      So there is some reduction as far as the first four months are
  concerned?
        (Mr Boateng)   No.  There is a slight increase but it is not of the scale
  that would start alarm bells ringing.  I do think it is important to stress
  that we have increased the number of dogs, to go back to our earlier point
  about the view of the Director General and myself in relation to the use of
  dogs.  We have got 121 passive dogs on the scene now and 196 active dogs.  As
  I say, we are wanting to see that number increase.
        49.      The fact that there is this increase, not a substantial increase,
  in the first four months of this year compared t last year, 26 extra, do you
  think, Minister, that this is going to be the trend of increase rather than
  decrease?
        (Mr Boateng)   I hope when we come to see the final year figures that we
  will not see an appreciable increase.  I have got the figures here for the MDT
  increase.  That does not in fact seem to indicate an overall heroin increase. 
  In fact, the reverse is slightly the case, although I would not want to put
  too much emphasis on this.  It was 5.4 per cent in 1996/97, down to 4.4 per
  cent in 1999/2000.  In 51 prisons what the MDTs are showing us is that heroin
  is down.  The indicators are not that we are witnessing an increase in this
  area.  They give one some slight cause for optimism, but it is early days and
  I think I would rather err on the side of caution.
        (Mr Narey)  We may see a modest increase in heroin finds.  We are getting
  much better at finding heroin.  Just last Thursday I was at Lancaster Castle
  which has seen both MDT positives for cannabis and heroin plummet in the last
  year, and I saw an active drug dog, newly acquired for Lancaster Castle,
  working for the first time and, totally coincidentally, find a trace of heroin
  in a servery which could not ever have been found by the human eye.  As we get
  better with using more active drug dogs, as our dedicated search teams which
  Mr Howarth referred to get much more proficient at searching, I think we may
  find additional drugs and that is why I believe we have not seen the
  consequent rise in heroin positives on MDT as cannabis has fallen that some
  of us feared.
        50.      We were told that the Home Office had a project in mind to map
  the principal routes by which prisoners acquire drugs.  I am just wondering,
  particularly in view of the last comments, if the project to map the principal
  route of how drugs, especially hard drugs, get into prison is due for
  completion this year.
        (Mr Boateng)   We had a situation where our first priority had to be to
  set up CARATs and the new rehabilitation programme so that the prisoners had
  access to treatment.  We have taken a number of steps, as I have indicated,
  to reduce the supply of drugs into prison, but we would hope that the project
  on supply routes would be completed by the end of the year.  I certainly
  expect to receive the report by the end of the year and it may be even that
  the field work will have been done by the end of autumn.  I am optimistic that
  we will be able to complete that piece of work within a reasonable timescale. 
  We are now able to devote some more time to that.
        51.      Sir David of course mentioned that there were drug barons in most
  prisons.  Sir David did say, as you know, that there were drug barons
  virtually in every prison.  We made a recommendation in our report, as you
  know, that these drug dealers, drug barons, should be disrupted by confining
  them in segregation units.  Has further thought been given to our
  recommendation?
        (Mr Boateng)   You have adopted the terminology "drugs barons".  I rather
  take your view in relation to these matters, that it is not the name that is
  important.  What is important is the fact that we need to ensure that we act
  on the best possible intelligence, that we act robustly and determinedly in
  order to disrupt the operation of the supply routes and internal market within
  prisons.  We have a long standing policy, and I do not actually think that in
  terms of the wider concerns that this Committee has that you would expect us
  to abandon it, that segregation should not be seen as essentially a punitive
  measure.  It has to be capable of being justified in terms of wider concerns. 
  It has to be capable of being justified within the context that one would
  expect to see segregation made use of.  We prefer to see governors given the
  proper freedom and discretion to legitimately segregate prisoners who are
  suspected of drug dealing pending an internal, or indeed external,
  investigation.  They can continue segregation when they have the authority of
  a member of the Board of visitors pending transfer to another establishment
  where that was felt to be the best way of controlling the situation and
  preventing the prisoner from acting in the way that they have been acting. 
  It is however important that we do not clog up segregation with people who
  could be better managed in other ways.  It is important that we maintain our
  capacity to deal with disruptive or dangerous or very vulnerable prisoners,
  and segregation is our main tool there.  We do not want a situation in which
  our capacity to do that is impacted upon by segregation units being filled up
  with people who are there as part of some sort of drugs control mechanism. 
  What we want to do, and we are looking at this and we have looked at it, is
  to put the emphasis on disrupting the internal market of the dealers'
  activities.  I do not and will not, I can assure you, hesitate in ensuring
  that the full weight of the criminal law is brought to bear in these
  instances.  I think it is true to say, Mr Winnick, and the Director General
  may have his own take on this and I am only too happy for him to share it with
  you if he sees fit, that there has sometimes been a reluctance to utilise the
  full weight of the criminal sanction option in cases of serving prisoners. 
  The message I would want to go out very clear from Ministers is that we will
  not hesitate to involve the criminal law and introduce criminal sanctions
  where we believe that is the right way of dealing with it.  I would prefer to
  go down that route in the context of the wider initiatives we are taking in
  relation to supply than to use segregation units in this way as their primary
  purpose.
        52.      Your words are encouraging, Minister, about using the criminal
  law.  I would imagine that the drug barons are not disruptive prisoners.  I
  would be most surprised if they were.  They would be very well behaved
  prisoners for obvious reasons.  Therefore there may well be for all I know the
  wish that segregation should only be for those who disrupt in the normal way
  one would expect.  We are dealing with very subtle and very evil people.  I
  do not know whether Mr Narey wants to comment as you have suggested.
        (Mr Narey)  I agree with anything the Minister said about resorting to
  the criminal law.  What we have been hesitant on in dealing with that is that
  we sometimes have been anxious about securing police co-operation in taking
  prosecutions forward.  We have sometimes been anxious about the Crown
  Prosecution Service taking cases to court, and sometimes there is a
  frustration for the Prosecution Service serving prisoners for these and other
  matters where sentences are meted out which have no effect whatsoever on the
  time to be served because they are concurrent.  For fairly trivial matters I
  think it is better to use our internal disciplinary procedures, where the
  governor can for example add a total of 42 days to a sentence which can be
  quite effective and very immediate.  I agree with everything the Minister said
  about making sure that more serious instances go to the criminal law and I
  think we have got to work much more closely with the police and the CPS to get
  them to recognise that the selling of an amount of drugs which might be fairly
  trivial in the community is a very serious matter indeed when it is on a wing
  in a prison.
  
                               Mrs Dean
        53.      You mentioned in regard to drugs dogs that there has been an
  increase in the number to 121 passive drugs dogs and 196 active.  How close
  does that bring you to the targets to have one passive drug dog in each prison
  and two in some by March 2002?
        (Mr Boateng)   I think we are on target.
        (Mr Narey)  We will have a passive drug dog in every prison by March
  2002.  it is simply a matter of getting the handlers and the dogs properly
  trained.  The training investment in a passive drug dog is very considerable. 
  I do not know if you have seen one of them working, Mrs Dean.  They are quite
  extraordinary, but the training period is a very long one indeed.  It is not
  always easy for us to release dog handlers because frequently now we use dog
  handlers to have both an active dog and a passive dog, so there are certain
  problems of taking them away from their place of work.  We are on target and
  we shall have by the end of this year a passive trained dog in every prison. 
  In the meantime there is already the use of a passive drug dog available to
  every prison governor by arrangement with any other prison.
        (Mr Boateng)   We do have two area teams and a national support team, so
  where there is a particular problem or the governor says, "I want over a
  period of time to engage in a particular exercise", we can bring people in.
        54.      Has the Prison Service completed its consideration as to whether
  to allow more flexible use of passive drugs dogs, for instance, by deploying
  them on landings at night, which is a suggestion from the Committee?
        (Mr Narey)  We have been looking at this very carefully.  We have not
  ruled it out but it is, I have to say first of all, potentially very
  expensive.  The way an active drug dog works is that it detects the presence
  of some drugs, will go and find them and ferret them out.  That would mean,
  for example, that we would have to open cells during the night; it would mean
  that we would have to have considerably more staffing on in prisons than we
  do at the moment.  Our focus for the last couple of years has been to have a
  skeleton staff on at night, not always fully qualified prison officers, and
  to put our prison officers much more in activities during the day, working for
  example on drug treatment and offending behaviour programmes.  It is not just
  a matter of bringing a handler and his dog into a prison at night.  If we were
  to follow up the dog's indication that he had detected drugs, we would need
  quite a few extra staff simply to unlock the prisoner and to be able to search
  that cell and to deal with the prisoner there and then.  Our emphasis
  therefore has been on using the dogs through the day when we have the staff
  available to deal with the consequences.
        55.      Moving on to searching, has anything been done in practice to
  address the Committee's concerns about the shortage of female officers to
  search female visitors, and the issue of how visitors might identify staff if
  they wished to register a complaint?
        (Mr Boateng)   We have recognised that there is an issue here in terms
  of the recruitment of female officers.  It is important as part of our wider
  commitment to diversity that we take on board the need to recruit more.  I
  think it is a measure of our determination in this area that 40 per cent of
  current recruits are in fact female and we have been developing guidance to
  governors which we plan to have out before the end of the year which will help
  them to determine the appropriate staff gender mix in order to meet their
  legal and operational needs.  It will also be important to make sure that we
  do not undermine this drive by getting wrong or confused messages out there
  and allowed to remain out there about genuine occupational qualifications. 
  There are certain posts where there may be genuine occupational qualifications
  that require someone of a particular gender and governors need guidance and
  assistance in determining what they are.  We do recognise that there are
  important issues here around dignity, around effective control, as well as
  around diversity.  I know the Director General is personally very committed
  to this area and so is the Board.
  
                              Mr Russell
        56.      Minister, if the concept of day visitors is introduced is this
  going to provide another route for drugs to be smuggled into prisons?
        (Mr Boateng)   This is, Mr Russell, an important time for us in terms of
  evaluating how best custody can be utilised to respond to concerns about re-
  offenders, and the high volume of re-offending of some offenders.  Twenty per
  cent account for 60 per cent of all sentencing incidents, that 20 per cent
  having four or more previous offences.  That requires a response and the Home
  Secretary has initiated a process which will enable us to review the 1991 Act
  so as to increase the focus of sentences on outcomes to tackle repeat
  offenders.  Part of that will involve looking at the options for custody on
  a day basis, on a weekend basis, through attendance centres, through weekend
  custody.  It is early days yet.  We have just announced this review today to
  Parliament and I do not want to pre-empt its outcome, but if we were looking
  (and we are) at what custody can contribute to this area, one of the things
  we would also look at is the implications for existing establishments if you
  were to have a mixed population and the case for the development of a distinct
  aspect of the estate in terms of catering for this particular group of people
  who were subject to custody.  I am old enough in the criminal justice system,
  and I suspect you may be, Mr Russell, to remember the time when there were
  attendant centres for young offenders.  You would turn up at an attendant
  centre.  That was a specific part of the then juvenile criminal justice system
  and it had a role to play and one might well dominate a distinct estate, but
  you are absolutely right, that it would always be important to ensure that,
  just as we had to ensure it, to go back to the very first part of your
  question in relation to open prisons and to training establishments, very
  important to make sure that when people do spend time out or when people go
  out to work, you do not allow them to introduce drugs when they get back. 
  That is something we are acutely aware of.
        57.      Moving that one on then, you have demonstrated the importance of
  having drug dogs at all prisons.  Where I am currently confused is that when
  we produced our report the Government responded that there would be at least
  one passive drug dog in each prison from 2000 onwards, and then, as I
  understood the subsequent debate, they said the year 2002.  Does every prison
  currently have at least one passive drug dog?
        (Mr Narey)  No, Mr Russell, 109 do, but by the end of this year to meet
  the target for 2000 all of them will.  In the meantime every prison has
  available the use of a passive drug dog if the governor decides that they need
  one.
        58.      Following on something else that the Minister said, the mere fact
  that there is a dog at the door is a deterrent, that is exactly what I
  experienced when I visited Chelmsford Prison two years ago and that experience
  was one of the reasons why the Committee agreed to have a passive drug dog at
  every prison.  But it then falls down, again going back to Chelmsford Prison,
  when the passive drug dog has identified a visitor potentially having drugs,
  there is nowhere for that person to be searched.
        (Mr Boateng)   That is why it is important that we ensure that dogs are
  seen as part of the whole context in this area.  That does include places
  where people can be searched. To back to Mrs Dean's point, it includes
  ensuring that you have got the mix of officers to enable the search of females
  who you believe are bringing drugs into prison.  Dogs by themselves are not
  enough.  We are also having to look at aspects of the accommodation, CCTV and
  other security responses to this problem.
        59.      When will Chelmsford Prison have facilities for visitors who are
  detected as potentially having drugs to be searched?
        (Mr Boateng)   Let me if I may, because I want to give you, Mr Russell,
  as much comfort and joy as I possibly can in relation to your own local
  prison, undertake to write to you on that one, unless the Director General can
  pull it out of the hat, and I rather think he cannot by the look that crossed
  his face.  Perhaps I can write to you on that one in order to make sure that
  you are satisfied that at least we are moving in your prison to meeting that
  particular need where it has been assessed.
        Chairman:   It is my painful duty to say to the Committee that we are
  well behind and it is entirely my fault because I have let all these
  fascinating questions come up.
  
                               Mr Linton
        60.      I shall ask some crisp questions to make good progress, mainly
  on the level of drugs.  Just on the last question, Mrs Dean asked about name
  badges for staff on visitor duty.  Is that being progressed at the moment?
        (Mr Boateng)   Yes.
        (Mr Narey)  Yes, it is, Mr Linton.  I have just issued an instruction and
  we shall be introducing from summer of this year arrangements whereby all
  prison officers will wear numbered epaulettes so that they will be
  identifiable at all times both to visitors and to prisoners.  Other staff will
  wear name badges.  I was somewhat sympathetic to prison officer concerns that
  identifying them might in some circumstances (I think very rarely, frankly)
  bring them into some danger, but identification by numbered epaulettes will
  be introduced this year.
        61.      We are always glad to know that you have responded to a
  suggestion of ours, even if it may have been in progress before.  On the level
  of drug use, clearly the mandatory drug testing has shown a very impressive
  decrease from nearly 21 per cent down to 14.5 per cent, although obviously
  that has been all in cannabis rather than in heroin.  I have three specific
  questions on the levels.  One is the question of interpretation because in
  your response to our report you say that the Committee may have misunderstood
  the results.  A monthly random positive rate of five per cent for opiates, for
  example, does not mean that five per cent of prisoners have taken opiates. 
  We certainly were not under the impression that it did.  Indeed, a positive
  rate of five per cent could mean that 50 per cent of prisoners were taking
  opiates once a month.  It just depends on the frequency as well as the
  numbers.
        (Mr Boateng)   Mr Linton, you are absolutely right, the value of MDT
  figures is only that they provide a snapshot of the patterns of drug misuse,
  they help us identify trends in drug taking.  I would say I know, and share,
  the Committee's concerns to make sure that we are not simply transferring
  people off one drug on to another.  I do think that there is some reason,
  looking at the percentage of usage in terms of what the MDT results throw up,
  for a degree of cautious optimism.  Although the decrease is not as dramatic
  as it is relation to cannabis, 19.9 to 10.2 in the period 1996-97 to 1999-
  2000, it is nevertheless a decrease of 5.4 to 4.3.  Indeed, on all of them,
  on benzodiazepines, there is a decrease.  If you take cocaine it was 0.2 in
  1996-97 but even in the intervening years there was some drop.  I do not think
  that we should succumb to the belief that there is not some evidence of
  progress right the way across the scale.
        62.      The figures we have got show 4.2, 4.4, 4.4.  I am happy to call
  that static but I cannot read a decrease into it.  On the particular question
  of switching, the point that the Committee made was that the relative
  importance of heroin and cocaine sadly is increasing, and if you look at those
  tables at the beginning of the tables they are about a fifth of the positive
  results and now they are close to a third simply because they have stayed
  static when the others have fallen.  There continues to be a lot of evidence
  from prisoners of switching. You might say they have an interest in showing
  that the system does not work, I do not know.  During our inquiry we found a
  lot of anecdotal evidence from prisoners, and sometimes from staff, who
  refused to exclude the possibility that there could be switching going on.
        (Mr Boateng)   I do not think we should exclude the possibility.  I am
  cautious, as I have indicated, about anecdotal evidence, nevertheless I hear
  what you say and it is there and certainly those anecdotes are showing this. 
  I am not telling any tales out of school but whether I am or not I think it
  is important that you should be aware of it, that the Director-General and I
  ourselves have had some robust exchanges on this issue and in my view for good
  reason, because of the very reasons the Committee has alighted upon.  I well
  understand those reasons and share them with you, having heard those anecdotes
  from prisoners.  What we do know is that the two independent pieces of
  research that have been commissioned and have come to fruition so far in this
  area do not, in fact, support the contention that MDT does cause prisoners to
  switch from cannabis to opiates.  Because I share the Committee's concerns in
  this area that we should tie this one down we are concerned and we plan a
  further piece of research so we have the best available information.  I would
  be only too happy to send you a note about the development in this area.
        63.      Just one last point on this, and possibly the harshest thing we
  said in our report, that the MDT programme has failed if it has reduced
  cannabis use but has had no effect on heroin, a point that you rejected.  I
  would like to know your reasons.  While obviously cannabis use is a very
  serious matter, at the end of the day it may be that burglars do use the
  proceeds of their crime on cannabis but the drugs that drive crime, that send
  people back to commit burglaries time and time again, are addictive drugs. 
  The focus must surely be on heroin and cocaine and the measure of success to
  a large extent must be the success in reducing that.
        (Mr Narey)  If I may respond to that, Chairman.  First of all, although
  it is only one percentage point, the shift in heroin use does show, in fact,
  a 20 per cent fall over the same period that cannabis has fallen, nowhere near
  as dramatic.  I recollect, I think it was said to the Committee last year, it
  certainly was said to me very forcefully last time I was here, that if we were
  to introduce weekly testing, and at the time of the last hearing there was no
  weekly testing, MDT positives for opiates would rocket because the anecdotal
  evidence given to me by prisoners was that prisoners took heroin on a Friday
  night and flushed it out of their system.  We have not yet reached 40 per cent
  of testing on weekends, it is about 12 per cent, but the fall in heroin MDTs
  has continued.  I take more confidence in the results this year because of
  weekend testing than I did last year.
        64.      I am glad to hear that.  One point that you did not respond to
  in our report was about heroin saliva tests.  We had evidence that they were
  a more accurate way of testing for the presence of opiates and they lasted
  longer.  Your response said that you were looking at overseas experience.  Is
  that not a possibility?
        (Mr Boateng)   There are others who may know about this than I, but the
  feedback we got from our medical people was that the range of drugs that can
  be tested for in saliva is more limited than in urine and the results more
  difficult to interpret.  One of the strengths of MDT has been that the results
  have proved robust.  We all know from other fields what can happen if you
  begin to have doubts and reasons to doubt the accuracy of the tests, it can
  undermine the whole regime.  I would be very reluctant to abandon the urine
  test and even to mix it with the saliva in terms of a testing medium because
  we have got a pretty robust tool now in relation to urine testing.  Indeed,
  such research as there is, and I am grateful for this advice, is that the
  University of Strathclyde has come up with a report that does demonstrate that
  urine is still the best.
        65.      Let me ask you also about 100 per cent testing because you did
  seem rather reluctant to go to the system of 100 per cent testing.  In the
  case of Blantyre House you seem to have accomplished it remarkably efficiently
  and quickly.  Why can you not do it elsewhere?
        (Mr Boateng)   I think we have demonstrated, Mr Linton, if nothing else,
  that the circumstances at Blantyre House were rather exceptional.  Point
  taken, but not acceptable.
        66.      Especially since you waxed eloquent about how you have to wait
  up to two hours for somebody to produce a urine sample.
        (Mr Boateng)   Blantyre House took five hours for 120 people.  It was a
  major operation.
        67.      We felt this very strongly both in terms of 100 per cent testing
  in a particular prison, which obviously you accomplished in five hours at
  Blantyre House, but also in terms of 100 per cent testing on admission.  This
  is where difficulties were raised about the cost of doing this.  It also
  emerged that there is evidence that some prisons already do this.  It seems
  to me if prison is to be regarded as an opportunity when society can deal with
  the problem of drugs, the first requirement is for us to know who is on drugs
  when they arrive in the criminal justice system.
        (Mr Boateng)   There will come a time when we will have to take a
  decision on this and your view clearly will help us and inform that decision. 
  There is an argument for 100 per cent testing on admission and it is a very
  rational, reasonable, in my view quite good argument in relation to ensuring
  that we identify how best to utilise the limited resources at our disposal. 
  It is important to bear in mind, and we are going to have to bear in mind,
  that it would cost about œ9.2 million.  There will be a judgment that we are
  going to have to make, that I will make with the Home Secretary, about whether
  or not this is the best use of œ9.2 million.  That will be informed by the
  view of the Director-General, by the view of Keith Hellawell and, indeed, by
  the view of this Committee which you have expressed very clearly which we will
  need to take on board as part of our consideration when we make a final
  decision on this.
        68.      We are very glad to have that figure.  We queried the cost of
  tests quite a bit during our inquiry and you said that studies were continuing
  into the relative costs.  They varied from œ70 each to a few pence each.  Have
  you any clearer idea now of the cost of tests that underlie that figure?
        (Mr Boateng)   That figure is 8.6 million in terms of staff opportunity
  and it is 0.6 million in terms of drug testing kits.
        69.      Are these litmus tests or are they dipper tests?
        (Mr Boateng)   Dipper.
        (Mr Narey)  If I might help on the general costs of our random testing,
  I know Sir David suggested last year that the tests we used were œ70 and there
  was a test available for 50p.  He was mistaken and I think he has since
  acknowledged that.  The average cost of an MDT test which meets evidential
  purposes so that we can adjudicate on those who are found positive, which is
  vital to the whole strategy, for the six drugs for which we test it is about
  œ3.40 and it is as competitive as we believe we can obtain.
        Mr Linton:  Fine.
  
                               Chairman
        70.      We were just a little puzzled, Minister, about your reluctance
  on the mandatary testing of all new entrants to the criminal justice system
  when we saw under the drug abstinence orders it is going to be possible to
  make it a condition of release on licence that the prisoner should undergo
  drug testing.  You know what we are saying ---
        (Mr Boateng)   I do.
        71.      But we hear what you say in response.
        (Mr Boateng)   I must say, I was not present when evidence was given last
  year but I think I have a sense of that evidence.  I hope you also detected
  a greater willingness to go down the 100 per cent testing for new entrants
  into the system.
        72.      Yes.  A couple of quick questions.  You did not in the Government
  response give us any information on the distinction made by governors in
  sentences for prisoners found to be using cannabis or harder drugs.  Was there
  a reason for that?
        (Mr Narey)  There was not a reason for that, Mr Chairman, I am sorry we
  did not give one.  The advice we have given to governors is very firm and they
  have been following it now for a year or more.  They do make a very
  significant distinction between penalties for those who have tested positive
  for cannabis and those who have tested positive for opiates and other harder
  drugs.  Generally speaking, it is only those testing positive for harder drugs
  which will get the governor's maximum award of 42 added days.
        73.      Yes.  The report, and I am sure you will acknowledge this, made
  the point, as other people have, that the real purpose is to get
  rehabilitation and not punishment.  Have you yet reformulated the key
  performance indicator for the positive MDT results?
        (Mr Boateng)   No, we have not.
  
                             Mr Fabricant
        74.      We have established over the last couple of hours that there is
  indeed a problem and my colleague, Gerald Howarth, mentioned the University
  of Surrey Report which said that most of the prisoners who were tested had got
  serious hard drug problems.  What I want to move on to, if I may, in a bit
  more detail is the treatment provision.  One of the most important aspects is
  the CARAT programme, which is the Counselling, Assessment, Referral, Advice
  and Throughcare service which the Government is supporting.  I gather that 15
  of the prisons are under-staffed because of recruitment difficulties, and that
  really is of some concern to the Committee.  I wonder whether the Minister can
  reassure us, or perhaps even worry us, as to the situation now and whether or
  not we are going to see all prisons having a fully operational CARAT programme
  in operation?
        (Mr Boateng)   It is a picture which I think will be reassuring to the
  Committee, whilst at the same time recognising that there are, as I have
  indicated earlier, capacity issues.  Recruitment difficulties cause delay, as
  I have indicated earlier, but CARATs are now operational in all but 15 of our
  establishments, the remainder will be fully staffed very shortly.
        75.      Could you set a target?
        (Mr Boateng)   I am happy to say to you that by the end of the summer we
  ought to be in a position to assure the Committee they are up and running
  everywhere.
        76.      That is fine.  That is very helpful.  Let us move on because I
  am conscious of time and you have given a very helpful answer there.  We are
  concerned that the Prison Service intends to ensure that all prisoners have
  access to rehabilitation but it ought to be on need rather than just on
  chance, that all the services, and this is not just CARAT, are available. 
  Have you made any estimate as to the number of prisons which will need
  treatment programmes in the medium to long-term?
        (Mr Boateng)   I am acutely conscious of the need for us to ensure in
  relation to the work we are doing with the NHS and the needs assessment which
  arise from that, that issues around drugs and alcohol are taken on board in
  terms of the health needs assessment.  I think we will be able through CARATs
  to reliably assess and quantify the need.  I am not able to tell you now,
  obviously, what the outcome of that is likely to be, save to say that again
  there is actually some good news in terms of the existing treatment programmes
  which we plan, 19 of which are already fully operational, nine partly
  operational, those nine and the remaining five fully operational by September. 
  So there is good news there and I plan to be able to build on that.
        77.      Again, you were very helpful earlier on by giving an estimate as
  to when you think the CARAT programme will be fully distributed among the
  Prison Service.  Can you give us an estimate as to when you think you will
  have a better idea?
        (Mr Boateng)   I would hope that in giving evidence to you next year we
  would be in a position then to give you a clearer picture.
        78.      Let us move on to Lowdham Grange Prison briefly.  You will know
  it is a privately-managed prison but the Chief Inspector was critical of the
  small amount that was allocated, and it would seem it is around œ7,000, and
  indeed, other contract prisons run by private organisations which he
  inspected.  Is that coincidence or is there actually a policy to allocate a
  lower proportion of funding to privately-managed prisons?  If it is policy,
  why?
        (Mr Narey)  It certainly was not policy, Mr Fabricant.  We allocated the
  money on the basis of need, we made no distinction between private sector or
  public sector prisons.  So if a particular prison was doing quite well in
  terms of having something which looked like the drug strategy, we gave rather
  less money to them.  In other words, we were trying to equalise provision.
        79.      If that is fair, why did the Chief Inspector make his criticism? 
  If it was done by need?
        (Mr Narey)  I do not know why he made the criticism but I can promise you
  that it was done by need.  I have only ever discussed this particular issue
  with Sir David with regard to Buckley Hall, he has not raised any concerns
  with me personally on Lowdham Grange.  Certainly I think the result of the
  investment across the private sector estate as well as public sector prisons,
  is that we have a reasonably level playing field now in terms of provision.
        (Mr Boateng)   We can write to the Committee and do you a note on Lowdham
  Grange if there are specific concerns there, and certainly I will get the
  Chief Inspector to feed into that.
        Mr Fabricant:  I think that would be very helpful.  Thank you.
  
                               Mrs Dean
        80.      Minister, has the intended balance between the provision of
  treatment services internally by the Prison Service and that by provided by
  external providers been adhered to in practice?  What are the proportions?
        (Mr Boateng)   We certainly have made every effort to actively involve
  the voluntary sector and external providers, not least because of the rigour
  that the Director General has insisted upon in terms of the procurement
  process and the complex nature of the market.  So that has of necessity
  involved us in the process which has sought to get a proper balance.  I do
  have the figures, now kindly brought to my attention, and it is in terms of
  rehab literally 50-50.  My own view is that one should not necessarily have
  any fixed percentage.  We want to make sure that we are utilising the
  resources as best we can and that means a willingness if necessary to go for
  a greater outside provision if that is the best and most cost effective way
  of delivering it.  But the market will vary, not least because of
  inflexibilities and rigidity within that market.  As I indicated earlier on,
  Mrs Dean, the Department of Health and ourselves do have concerns about
  recruitment and capacity and we have taken a number of initiatives which I
  would be happy to outline in order to address that concern.
        81.      Could you tell the Committee who will provide an external audit
  to ensure a balance is achieved, if not the UK Drugs Co-ordinator?
        (Mr Boateng)   I do not know the answer to that question and I will ask
  the Director General if he does.
        (Mr Narey)  The provision and the balance of delivery treatment services
  has all been agreed in fine detail with the UK Drugs Co-ordinator.  He was
  cautious about the extent of the involvement of prison officers in the work. 
  He was persuaded by me that using prison officers was one way of trying to go
  deeper into prisons, and I think if he were here he would volunteer he has
  been persuaded that is very important.  We will continue in that balance to
  work very closely with Keith Helliwell and to make sure that we are, as he
  says, part of the wider drugs strategy.  But, in addition, later this year we
  will be putting in hand some additional research which will be done by
  independent universities which will evaluate the effectiveness of the whole
  strategy and which will include a critical look at whether or not we are
  getting best value for money in the balance between using our staff and using
  voluntary agency staff.
        (Mr Boateng)   Can I just make the point about the advantage of some
  involvement of prison staff?  I think the same case can be made, and I know
  it is an interest of the Committee, in relation to prison health care.  We
  have to develop, and I am full of admiration for the front line officers who
  are engaged in this work, a culture on the wings which is anti-drug.  The key
  people on the wings are prison officers.  These are a body of men and women
  who do have and have developed day in, day out real skills in terms of
  personnel and human management.  They are able through their conversations
  that they are encouraged - and the best of them do have - to have with inmates
  on the wings to send out some very, very positive messages.  They do actually
  know what folk get up to and how people play the system.  They are well-
  equipped, particularly when you put the emphasis that we do put on their
  training, to play a very positive role here, as we want them to play, with
  public health and other health issues on the wings themselves.  So it is
  important, and that is why I go back to the point I made earlier, not to have
  a sort of doctrinaire or ideological approach to it, that outsiders, non-
  prison staff, are necessarily always going to be best.  The mix does seem to
  work.
        82.      I think the one concern that we did have was that they may be
  taken away from the task of drugs at a time of need elsewhere in the prison,
  rather than their actual ability to do the job.  That is what the Committee
  was concerned about.
        (Mr Boateng)   That is a specific operational matter but my experience,
  talking to front line staff and to governors, is that they are very conscious
  of the dangers of that and would do everything they could to make sure it did
  not happen.
        (Mr Narey)  An absolute priority given to governors last year and this
  year, after they have retained their security record which is much improved,
  is that the emphasis is on education, offending behaviour programmes and drug
  treatment.  It would only be under the most dire circumstances that a prison
  officer would withdraw from that work.  We would, for example, close workshops
  and close access to the gymnasium before we interrupted a drug treatment
  programme.
        83.      Can I move on to training?  When will the training needs analysis
  for prison staff deployed to new treatment programmes be published?  Will it
  address the Committee's recommendations for the setting of minimum standards
  and external audit?  How do you intend to measure the quality of programmes
  as opposed to output measurements?
        (Mr Boateng)   By the end of the year - and yes is the answer to the
  first two questions.  We are developing the package taking on board the Health
  Care Standard 8 requirements in this area in order to make sure that staff do
  keep up to date with developments in the clinical aspects of drug treatment
  within the NHS.  As I indicated in response to Mr Fabricant, this is seen as
  a health issue and part of the wider push on health care in prisons that we
  are seeking to take forward.
        84.      Can I move quickly on to accreditation?  What is the current
  position regarding accreditation of drug treatment programmes?  Is it still
  the case that drug treatment programmes are also required to address offending
  behaviour before receiving accreditation?
        (Mr Boateng)   Yes, both.  All drug treatment programmes are required to
  achieve accredi
  
  tation with the joint prison probation panel by March 2002.  That determines
  the criteria to be met and we are also taking forward consultation with
  organisations involved in the development of the quality in alcohol and drug
  services, to go back to a point which was made about the link between alcohol
  and drugs.  The aim is to get us to meet minimum recognised standards as the
  programme moves towards accreditation.  So it is not an all-or-nothing
  process.  By November 2000 in seven prisons we will have the programme run by
  RAPt fully accredited and that contains both the elements you have referred
  to.
        85.      Do you know whether the successful treatment programme operated
  by RAPt at Downview, which we visited as a Committee, has now received
  accreditation?
        (Mr Boateng
  
                               Chairman
        86.      Thank you, Minister, Mr Narey, Mr Lee, Mr Glaze.  We are going
  to have to pull stumps there, I am afraid.
        (Mr Boateng)   Thank you, Chairman.
        87.      I wonder, if there are some questions which we have not been able
  to put, if we might ask you to comment on those in writing?
        (Mr Boateng)   I would be delighted, Chairman.
        88.      We will keep them to a minimum.  Thank you very much indeed for
  your help.  We are glad of the progress which is being made.
        (Mr Boateng)   Thank you very much, Chairman.