WEDNESDAY 18 OCTOBER 2000

    

______________

    

Members present:

               Robin Corbett, in the Chair

               Mr Ian Cawsey

               Mrs Janet Dean

               Mr Gerald Howarth

               Mr Martin Linton

               Mr Humfrey Malins

               Mr Paul Stinchcombe

               Mr David Winnick

    

____________

    

    

MEMORANDUM SUBMITTED BY THE HOME OFFICE

EXAMINATION OF WITNESSES

    

    RT HON PAUL BOATENG, a Member of the House,
(Minister of State), Home Office, MR MARTIN NAREY, Director General,
HM Prison Service, MR JOHN PODMORE, Operational Commander of search
team on 5/6 May, and MR TOM MURTAGH, Area Manager for Prison Service
in Kent, Sussex and Surrey, examined.

    

Chairman

    59.    Good afternoon, gentlemen.
You will know that we are inquiring into the impact of the raid
on Blantyre House on 5th and 6th May and related events, and results
of the criminal investigation carried out by Kent police. Perhaps
I should explain the way in which we would like to do this. We
would like to start with some questions about the career change
which had been planned for Mr McLennan­Murray and the appointment
of the new Governor, Mr Bartlett. Then we would like to ask some
questions of Mr Podmore and Mr Murtagh about the briefing that
proceeded the events of 5th and 6th May, and then go into the
search itself. I am just explaining this to you, Mr Boateng, because,
clearly, neither you nor Mr Narey were actually there when all
his happened and your two colleagues, Mr Murtagh and Mr Podmore,
were.

    (Mr Boateng)  Of course, Chairman,
and in relation to decisions as to the deployment of personnel,
that would be an operational matter which you will understand
Mr Narey will want, first of all, to respond to, and I will be
happy to add anything that I usefully can.

    60.    Thinking of past events, I
know how important the distinction is between operational decisions
and ministerial ones are, not least in the Prison Service.

    

    (Mr Boateng)  Quite so, Mr Corbett.

    

Mr Howarth

    61.    Mr Murtagh, can I just pass
you this document? Can you tell me if that is your document?

    (Mr Murtagh)  It is a document
that was prepared following the search. It was not actually prepared
by me, but it was prepared on my behalf.

    62.    It was prepared on your behalf?

    (Mr Murtagh)  Yes.

    63.    It has your name on the bottom?

    (Mr Murtagh)  That is correct,
yes.

    64.    Who was it prepared for?

    (Mr Murtagh)  It was prepared
to brief the Director General.

    65.    It was for the Director General?

    (Mr Murtagh)  Yes.

    66.    This was the basis of the
information upon which the Director General was­­­

    (Mr Murtagh)  I am sorry, that
is the brief following the search, as I understand it. Can I just
look at the document?

    67.    It says, "A report of
the events of 5th May 2000", and it says, "Kent, Surrey
and Sussex area office report of events at HMP Blantyre House,
5th May 2000." So it was after, but it was for the Director
General?

       (Mr Murtagh)  It was
a report on the search immediately afterwards, the following day.

    68.    You may recall that in the
document you said that in paragraph two, "Chris Bartlett
was appointed as the new Governor of Blantyre House. Mr Bartlett's
first action as the new Governor was to request a full search
of the establishment and have every prisoner drug tested."
You said, "I accepted Mr Bartlett's request."

    

    (Mr Murtagh)  That is correct.

    69.    Is that not somewhat disingenuous?
We were told just yesterday, in answer to my question to Mr Bartlett,
that you only approached him on 3rd May, two days before the raid.
He knew absolutely nothing about his promotion and you only approached
him two days before hand, and suddenly he should come up with
a request for this draconian search, and that you had requested
this request. You had been planning this thing for weeks, had
you not?

       (Mr Murtagh)  The
search was authorised on 28th April and the request was a formality
from the Governor. Having taken charge of the prison he then formally
asked for us to carry out the search, which was already planned,
which he, as the Governor, had to formally approve, and which
he did.

    70.    You had been planning this
for weeks, had you not?

    (Mr Murtagh)  No, we had not
been planning it for weeks. We began planning it on the weekend
prior, it was the Bank holiday weekend. It was given formal approval
on 28th April, if I remember, and I briefed Mr Podmore to begin
planning the search over the Bank holiday weekend.

    71.    When did you first discuss
this with your so called Chaucer team, that conditions in Blantyre
House were such that it warranted this kind of SAS style raid?

    (Mr Murtagh)  I did not actually
discuss it with my Chaucer team. The Chaucer team are a support
group who are investigators. They report to us, but I did not
discuss it with them at all, I discussed it with my superiors.
  72.    In your report you refer to initial planning
meetings. When did they take place?

    (Mr Murtagh)  Can you repeat
that?

    73.    You said, "I also attended
the initial planning meetings to provide advice based on my experience
of similar operations in the past."

    (Mr Murtagh)  That is correct.

    74.    When did they take place?

    (Mr Murtagh)  I attended the
meeting at Rochester. That was on the Wednesday prior to the search.

    75.    That is the 3rd.

    (Mr Murtagh)  The 3rd or the
4th, I think.

    76.    Is this before or after you
had advised Mr Bartlett of his exciting new appointment?

    (Mr Murtagh)  It was on the same
day. He attended the meeting.

    77.    Was it before or after?

    (Mr Murtagh)  I am sorry?

    78.    Was it before or after?

    (Mr Murtagh)  It was after I
had told him.

    79.    You told him in the morning,
"I've got this exciting new job for you. You have got a briefing.
The first thing we are going to do is go and raid the place, because
I was authorised by the Director General on 28th April to do this."

    (Mr Murtagh)  I did not refer
to it as a raid, I briefed him that he was to take over as governor
and I invited him to the meeting where he became aware of what
was planned. That was all the detail that was given to him at
the time. He understood that it was a confidential matter at that
stage.

    80.    Can I move to the actual promotion
of Mr McLennan­Murray from being a governor of a prison to
being a deputy governor of a prison, which I am told was a promotion?
In answer to questions taken in the House of Lords by Lord Mayhew,
the former Member of Parliament for the area, Lord Bassam said,
"Mr McLennan­Murray's career move to a different type
of prison had been planned for some time." Is it normal for
the area manager to serve a notice on a colleague that he is to
be moved forthwith?

    (Mr Murtagh)  It does happen.

    81.    That is a planned career move,
just to say, "You are out this afternoon"?

    (Mr Murtagh)  I did not plan
his career move. I was merely the courier of a letter from somebody
else. I did not decide when he was to move or where he was to
move to.

    82.    Who did?

    (Mr Murtagh)  That decision was
made by the Director General.

    83.    On whose advice?

    (Mr Murtagh)  I did discuss it
with him.

    84.    I think you will find that
in the evidence that the Director General gave us it was upon
your own advice, Mr Murtagh. So you were not a by­stander
in this.

    (Mr Murtagh)  I am sorry, I did
indicate that I was quite happy to have Mr McLennan­Murray
as part of my team in the area.

    (Mr Narey)  Mr Corbett, can I
clarify this particular line of enquiry?

    

Chairman

    85.    If you can help, sure.

    (Mr Narey)  Mr Howarth, I take
every decision on the appointments. I take all those decisions
personally, each and every one. I take them, generally, on advice
from the area manager and personnel department. I had decided
to move Eoin on from that post some months previously. He had
been there for four year and he was ready for a move. Indeed,
there were one or two jobs he had personally applied for. So the
decision to move Eoin and where he was to be moved to ­ although
I later, on appeal from Eoin, revised that ­ was taken by
me on advice from Mr Murtagh and by personnel.

    

Mr Winnick

    86.    To being a deputy governor
of Swaleside?

    (Mr Narey)  That is correct.

    87.    The Governor of that particular
prison was the very person who was given responsibility in carrying
out the sear on 5th and 6th May, John Podmore.

    (Mr Narey)  No. The person who
carried out that search, Mr Podmore ­ who is here today ­
had been the Governor of that prison. He had already left that
prison, or was in the process of leaving, and Eoin would have
moved to Swaleside to work with a completely new governor who
had just moved into that post.

    

Mr Howarth

    88.    There was bit of musical chairs
going on all of a sudden on 5th May whilst the raid was under
way, or had been planned to be under way that night. Is this good
management?

    (Mr Narey)  I do not think it
is musical chairs, Mr Howarth. Eoin had been at Blantyre House
for about four years. I think for the majority of that time he
did a very good job. He is a man I hold in high regard. I believe
he needed alternative experience and I believe, and still believe,
he needed experience in a more secure prison. Eoin is a man of
some potential and I expect him to govern larger prisons than
Blantyre House in the future, and I think he needed the experience
of­­­

    89.    Mr Narey, I accept that entirely.
I accept that you were well disposed towards him. I accept that
you were not totally critical of what he was doing at Blantyre
House, but you cannot honestly sit here and tell us that a planned
career move was notified to this bloke all of a sudden ­
although he had, through his own intelligence, got wind of it
some three weeks previously ­ and on the very day that you
knew that this bloke and his team were planning this random style
raid.

    (Mr Narey)  There is a distinction
to be made between the decision to move a governor on­­­
I might say that I have, since being the Director General, which
is 20 months, moved, I think, 12 governors on at very short notice
from prisons that have sometimes been failing. The decision to
move Eoin was taken by me some time before. I think I could produce
a letter I sent to the Chief Inspector telling him this some time
previously, because he had taken a personal interest. The timing
of the move is another matter. I was persuaded, because of intelligence,
which I hope I am able to convey to you in closed session, that
we needed to bring forward that move and at the same time, following
that move, we needed to engineer a search, not a raid, a search
of Blantyre House Prison.

    90.    It is extraordinary that this
planned move should have taken place on the very day that you
were planning a search on the establishment. Surely there is no
better way to signal to a man that you have no confidence in him
than by removing him on the very day that an exceptional move
takes place, because everybody who has come before us today has
said that it is most unusual to have undertaken this kind of lock­down
operation with an outside force and to combine the two. Surely
this was not a well disposed move towards somebody to whom you
were favourably disposed?

    (Mr Narey)  It is an extraordinary
move made in extraordinary circumstances. Once I had decided that
there was a need to effect a search of Blantyre House, which in
itself is not exceptional ­ there have been six lock­down
searches of category C prisons in the previous six months­­­

    91.    By outside forces?

    (Mr Narey)  All of them including
outside forces.

    

Chairman

    92.    With sledgehammers and crowbars?

    (Mr Narey)  No crowbars were
used. No sledgehammers were used.

    93.    Maybe I have the tool wrong,
but you insert a metal instrument into the gap between the frame
of the door to prise it open. Is that a crowbar or is that something
else?

    (Mr Narey)  A metal instrument
is used, which we obtain from the police specially for our purposes.
No crowbars and sledgehammers were used.

    94.    You are playing with words.

    Mr Howarth:  I think, Chairman, I have
finished.

    

Chairman

    95.    Let me just ask another question
about this planned career move. It was so well planned that within
a few days it was withdrawn as not being appropriate. What kind
of planning is that?

    (Mr Narey)  That is not quite
fair, Mr Corbett.

    96.    Did that happen or did it
not happen?

    (Mr Narey)  If I may explain.
I moved, or offered Eoin a move, to be deputy governor of Swaleside
Prison. I would not have done that if I did not have confidence
in him. Swaleside is a very large and difficult prison. It would
have meant that for many weeks of the year, and at least four
days in 14, Eoin would have been in charge of that prison, and
I still think that in career terms it would have been very good
for him. Eoin, with the support of his trade union, protested
against that and asked if I would consider, in the circumstances,
an alternative move, and sympathetically I did and he is now doing
a very important job for me in education services. I remain of
the view that the best career move for Eoin, the best way of ensuring
that he governs a larger prison sooner rather than later, would
have been to take the first job I offered him at Swaleside.

    97.    Mr Narey, I have to tell you
that you are totally and wholly unconvincing. I accept everything
that you have just said to the Committee, but you are totally
and wholly unconvincing as to why that had to be done that day
with the man given two hours notice to leave the prison. It simply
does not make sense.

    (Mr Narey)  I think I need to
explain later on the extraordinary intelligence which led to that
decision and why, once the decision had been taken to affect the
search,­­­

    98.    Just a minute. Let us get
this clear now, just a minute. So this was not a long planned
career move then, it was done on other grounds, was it, which
you are going to tell us about later?

    (Mr Narey)  No.

    99.    It cannot be both.

    (Mr Narey)  Mr Corbett, I have
explained. It was a long planned move. The timing was the thing
that was special to this particular day. I had planned Eoin's
move on from Blantyre for some time. The timing of the move was
consequent upon the need and the decision to search the prison
and I thought it better that the two things should happen at the
same time.

    Chairman:  We will come to that later.

    

Mr Linton

    100     I do not doubt for a moment
that a career move was planned for Mr McLennan­Murray, but
what I do not understand is for what reason was the security intelligence
that you had gathered not shared with the governor at the time?
This intelligence was with the Prison Service for some weeks before
the search. As we understand it from every other witness, the
normal procedure in these circumstances would be to inform the
governor of the prison about intelligence about his own prison.
I accept that there may be information that we do not yet have
that may shed a new light on this. If it was information about
drugs that required a drugs search or if it was information about
contraband, all of this, in the normal course of events, would
have been imparted to the governor and would not explain a lock­down
search carried out at night or carried out at such short notice.

    (Mr Narey)  I think I can only
adequately explain that in closed session.   Chairman:  Okay.

    

Mr Winnick

    101     I want to ask you, Mr Narey,
if you knew of what can only be described as the tense relationship
between the Area Manager, who is present today, and the previous
Governor. Were you aware of that?

    (Mr Narey)  Yes, I was aware
of that.

    102     How long were you aware of
it?

    (Mr Narey)  I had been aware
of it, certainly, since becoming Director General right at the
beginning of 1999.

    103     In evidence which we heard
yesterday when we were at the prison it was said by more than
one witness from the Board of Visitors that the previous Governor
had been the subject of bullying by the Area Manager. Have you
heard of that?

    (Mr Narey)  I had not heard that
either from Eoin or from his union until I was told it yesterday
and I heard Eoin say it this morning, nor do I agree with it.

    

Chairman

    104     Had the Board of Visitors
not conveyed this to you?

    (Mr Narey)  I do not recall the
Board of Visitors conveying this to me. The Board of Visitors
have certainly used words such as "robust" to describe
Mr Murtagh, but I do not remember them ever conveying to me that
Eoin had been the subject of bullying. I find it surprising that
he would, because it is only a few months ago that Eoin applied
to work for Mr Murtagh in another job as the Governor of Dover
Young Offenders Institute.

    

Mr Winnick

    105     So you were totally surprised
yesterday when you learned that he had been the subject of bullying?

    (Mr Narey)  I do not believe
he was the subject of bullying. I know Mr Murtagh has a robust
management style. Frankly, in the Prison Service that is frequently
necessary. I think the evidence shows that it is perfectly reasonable
to argue that if anything, on occasions, Mr Murtagh had not dealt
with Eoin as firmly as he might. When there had been recommendations
as long ago as 1998 of disciplinary action against Eoin the Area
Manager chose not to follow that. Mr Murtagh has 13 governors
working for him at the moment, 11 of them have worked for him
before and have volunteered to work with him again. That does
not suggest an ogre.

    106     In evidence today Mr McLennan­Murray
reported to us one incident which had taken place and the explanation
from the Area Manager that he was "winding him up"?

    (Mr Narey)  I was not party to
that conversation. I do know that clearly Mr McLennan­Murray
and Mr Murtagh had slightly different views. I shared Mr Murtagh's
view that Eoin had not got the balance between security and resettlement
right. I recorded that formally in the Commissioner's book in
June 1999 and wrote in extensive terms to the Board of Visitors
to convey that view. I do not think that Mr Murtagh's instructions
to the Governor, for example, to have prisoners searched on entry
to the prison and for visits to be supervised and so forth were
unreasonable and I think the Governor should have carried them
out.

    107     You were aware of a tense
relationship which existed between the two?

    (Mr Narey)  Certainly, Mr Winnick.

    

Mr Malins

    108     Do you share Mr Murtagh's
view that the men at Blantyre were "beyond redemption"?

    (Mr Narey)  That view has never
been made to me by anyone, and certainly not by Mr Murtagh. No,
I do not share that view, if anyone were to make that comment.

    (Mr Murtagh)  May I respond to
that?

    109     You should know first that
it has been given in evidence to us that you have said that to
one of the volunteers.

    (Mr Murtagh)  I have certainly
not said anything of the sort. I am a professional prison governor,
that is my background. I am in a business where if I had that
belief I could not continue to do my job. I categorically deny
it.

    

Mr Winnick

    110     Clearly both witnesses cannot
be telling the truth. You may be telling the truth or the witness
yesterday, but you cannot both be telling the truth.

    (Mr Murtagh)  I do not know what
the witness said. All I can tell you is the statement that you
have made there as quoting the witness I certainly did not say.
I do not know what else was said, but I am certainly happy to
respond to that.

    

Mr Howarth

    111     Can I put it to you, Mr Narey,
that given you were aware right from the start of this hearing
of your responsibilities as Director General, which I recognise
are wide ranging, you knew there was this tense relationship between
a man who you are well disposed towards, the Governor of Blantyre
House, and the Area Manager. Given that Blantyre House was quite
different from the other prisons that were then in the Area Manager's
command, surely it was unwise to have allowed this mistrust between
the two to build up, and surely it would have been better to take
Mr McLennan­Murray's career move decision rather earlier
than it was taken?

    (Mr Narey)  If I remember at
one point in the year there was talk of changing the role of Blantyre
House to become a juvenile institution. I wanted to keep Eoin
there. I think he would have been an exceptional governor of an
institution looking after boys. I wanted to keep him there. Once
that decision had been made between the minister and myself that
that was not going to happen I considered that it was time for
him to move.

    

Mr Stinchcombe

    112     If I might go a little further
in respect of the statement given to us yesterday in evidence,
Mr Murtagh, that you had said that the residents, or inmates,
of Blantyre House were beyond redemption, that was told to us
by the education manager of Blantyre House and she gave a date
upon which you said it to her.

    (Mr Murtagh)  And the date was?

    113     5th July. It was the date
of the minister's visit.

    (Mr Murtagh)  I did speak to
the education manager on that date and I spoke to her in the Governor's
office in the presence of the new Governor. The subject of the
conversation was to pass a reprimand to her for the behaviour
of one of her contract staff who, in my view, behaved totally
inappropriately in the education department in the presence of
prisoners. I spoke to her and asked her to deal with the situation.
That was the gist of the conversation that I had with her. At
no other time did I make any such comment. There is a witness
who was in the office at the time.

    114     Did you say that inmate,
residents, of Blantyre House were beyond redemption?

    (Mr Murtagh)  Of course I did
not say that.

    115     You would accept, would you
not, that any such statement would be completely out of keeping
with the ethos of the­­­

    (Mr Murtagh)  Absolutely. Can
I add that I set the objectives for the establishment, I set the
business plan with the Governor for Blantyre House, and if that
was my belief then, presumably, it would be reflected in the business
plan. I have reinforced my desire that the ethos of Blantyre continues,
even with the change. My first briefing to the new governor was
to make that explicitly clear to him that the whole ethos of Blantyre
had to be maintained.

    116     That was a lie, was it, that
we were told yesterday?

    (Mr Murtagh)  Well, all I can
tell you is that I did not say that.

    

Mr Winnick

    117     She was lying?

    (Mr Murtagh)  Well, I did not
say that.

    118     You are saying if the evidence
given to us yesterday by the lady in question quoted you as saying
that and now you deny it, clearly she was lying?

    (Mr Murtagh)  If you like, then
she is lying.

    

Mr Stinchcombe

    119     Can I take you back to the
document that Mr Howarth referred you to and the comments that
he asked you questions about in the second paragraph of that document?

    (Mr Murtagh)  I do not have the
document in front of me.

    120     This is a document bearing
your name and prepared on your behalf and sent to the Director
General?

    (Mr Murtagh)  Yes.

    121     It says in the second paragraph
that Mr Bartlett's first action as the new Governor was to request
a full search of the establishment and have every prisoner drug
tested.

    (Mr Murtagh)  Yes.

    122     That was a request that you
mandated of him, was it not?

    (Mr Murtagh)  Yes, it was.

    123     It does not say anywhere
in this document that you actually told him that his first action
would be to request of you and others a full search of the establishment,
does it?

    (Mr Murtagh)  I indicated to
him when he was informed of his appointment that it was our intention
to carry out a search of the establishment.

    124     This document does not make
it clear at all, does it, that you told him that his first action
would be to request of you and others that such a search take
place?

    (Mr Murtagh)  May I finish?

    125     Of course, if you answer
the question.

    (Mr Murtagh)  I am trying to
answer the question. I did tell him at the time that we intended
to search the prison and I explained to him why that was, without
going into explicit detail. We had intelligence and reasons for
doing that, part of which I outlined to him and he agreed. You
can say that I did tell him that we would search there.

    126     This document does not indicate
that at all, does it?

    (Mr Murtagh)  No, it does not.

    127     It gives a completely misleading
impression as to the source of the request of that search action,
does it not?

    (Mr Murtagh)  It does not, because
the document was not intended for outside the search, the document
was intended as an internal document to individuals who were already
aware of what had been planned.

    128     Would Mr Bartlett have been
appointed if he had said, "I don't want to search"?

    (Mr Murtagh)  The situation never
arose.

    129     Would a search have taken
place if he had not requested formally that it take place?

    (Mr Murtagh)  In my view a search
would have taken place because that decision had been made at
a higher level. I could not envisage circumstances where a governor,
confronted with the information provided as a basis for this,
would have said, "We should not have a search."

    130     You would need prison specific
information of very high quality that would justify such a request
to be made, would you not?

    (Mr Murtagh)  Can you define
what you mean by that?

    131     You have told us that the
information you had was such, as I understand it, that you cannot
conceive that an alternative decision would have been made.

    (Mr Murtagh)  We had sufficient
reasons for concern that warranted a search to be carried out.

    132     Of this particular prison?

    (Mr Murtagh)  Yes.

    133     And without those specific
reasons you would not recommend that such a search take place,
would you?

    (Mr Murtagh)  We would not have
considered that.

    134     Can I take you to the last
page of this document? You say here, "I have no information
on the situation that currently exists at the other two main resettlement
sites, Latchmere House and Kirklevington Grange, but the outcome
of this operation must point to a need to subject both of those
establishments to similar scrutiny."

    (Mr Murtagh)  Yes.

    135     So, without any detailed
information whatsoever in respect of those two establishments
you say that they must need similar searches?

    (Mr Murtagh)  No, that is not
what I said. I was drawing attention to the fact that I had identified
particular weaknesses in terms of the security of the establishment
and that I was recommending and suggesting that the area managers
of the other establishments should look closely at the procedures
in operation.

    136     This is the Director General?

    (Mr Murtagh)  Yes.

    137     You confirm here that you
have no information on the situation at Latchmere or Kirklevington.

    (Mr Murtagh)  That is correct.

    138     Without that information
you nonetheless told him that the outcome of this particular operation
must point to the need to subject both of those establishments
to similar scrutiny?

    (Mr Murtagh)  Yes, but scrutiny
is not search. It is a close look at what is happening at those
establishments, which actually did happen I believe.

    139     That suggestion that there
is a necessity to subject both those establishments to similar
scrutiny is irrespective of any understanding or evidence about
either of those institutions or establishments? It is not conditional
upon any information at all. You say you do not know any information
about those establishments?

    (Mr Murtagh)  That is correct.
I make that clear.

    140     I am obliged. It is therefore
not reliant upon any information about them or intelligence about
those establishments whatsoever?

    (Mr Murtagh)  That is correct.

    141     It is not reliant upon any
information about the Governor?

    (Mr Murtagh)  My statement that
is here ---

    142     Of either of those establishments?

    (Mr Murtagh)  My statement that
is here is stating that it might be appropriate in the light of
what we have found here to look at the procedures that are in
existence in the other two resettlement establishments.

    143     For reasons completely unrelated
to any intelligence about those establishments and completely
unrelated to any intelligence.

    (Mr Murtagh)  I was not advocating
any search of those establishments.

    144     I just wonder then what is
the similarity between those two establishments and this one?
There is no intelligence about them that you had. The only thing
that joins them is that they are both resettlement prisons, that
is right, is it not?

    (Mr Murtagh)  That is right.

    145     That is the only thing that
joins them? Your evidence is that this search points to the necessity
for all resettlement prisons to undergo similar scrutiny?

    (Mr Narey)  Can I help?

    146     I am asking the author of
this particular document who made the recommendation. It must
follow, must it not, that you are advocating that all resettlement
establishments be subject to similar scrutiny irrespective of
any evidence or technical information about it?

    (Mr Murtagh)  Regarding security
procedures, yes, which is different from searching. That is not
what I am advocating.

    147     The outcome upon which that
conclusion is based is that which is set out here, the findings
at Blantyre House following that particular search?

    (Mr Murtagh)  Yes.

    148     The fact that, as you know,
everybody passed the drugs test, for example?

    (Mr Murtagh)  Yes.

    149     That mandates, does it, a
similar scrutiny of every other resettlement prison?

    (Mr Murtagh)  No. What I was
referring to was the security on the movement of prisoners, on
the movement of items in and out of prison. That is specifically
what I was referring to, not to do with drugs at all.

    150     Not to do with drugs?

    (Mr Murtagh)  No, I was not specifically
referring to drugs. I was referring to the lack of security on
the perimeter and the ability of prisoners to move items in and
out of prison that were unauthorised.

    151     That is very interesting
because today we have heard that the officers conducting the search
at your request were briefed that the prison was awash with drugs
and yesterday you told us that your principal concern, as I recollect
it, was with respect to the drug screening at Blantyre House.

    (Mr Murtagh)  I did not say that
the establishment was awash with drugs.

    152     No, I did not say that. I
have said just now that today we have been told that the officers
who undertook the search were briefed that the prison was awash
with drugs and yesterday you told us - you told us - of your specific
concern about the drug screening at Blantyre House.

    (Mr Murtagh)  With respect, that
is not true. They were not briefed that the establishment was
awash with drugs.

    153     You are not concerned with
the prison being awash with drugs?

    (Mr Murtagh)  I did not say that.
What I said was the staff were not briefed about the prison being
awash with drugs. I did indicate to you that there was intelligence,
which I am sure we are quite happy to deal with in private session,
which gave us cause for concern about the accuracy of the drug
test results and that we took the opportunity to carry out the
drug test during the search, bearing in mind that all prisoners
in Blantyre have signed contracts agreeing to be voluntarily tested.

    154     When you took those drug
tests everybody passed?

    (Mr Murtagh)  Well, one prisoner
refused to take the test and there was one diluted sample initially.

    

Mr Howarth

    155     You know why the prisoner
could not take the test, because he was incapable of passing urine.

    (Mr Murtagh)  I am sorry, I do
not know that.

    Mr Howarth:  You ought to know that,
Mr Murtagh.

    

Mr Stinchcombe

    156     Just to understand this.
On the back of that search and on the back of the action on it,
you recommended to the Director General that every other resettlement
prison undergo similar scrutiny. The first concern, the drugs
concern, on which you did have intelligence, the actual search
showed you there was no use of drugs at all?

    (Mr Murtagh)  That is correct.

    157     That would not justify, would
it, similar scrutiny at other prisons?

    (Mr Murtagh)  I was very pleased
to see that. However, I was concerned that drugs were found. The
issue I was referring to was the generality of security systems
and the fact that staff are conditioned in these environments
and we need to keep alert to that.

    158     It follows, does it not,
that what you actually say in this report is that you do not need
intelligence to justify such scrutiny of a resettlement prison?
You do not need intelligence in respect of a governor. You do
not need intelligence in respect of any drugs. You simply need
the outcome of this particular search even though it shows there
was not even drug use at this prison. That is what you are saying.

    (Mr Murtagh)  No, I am saying
in every prison - we are dealing with prisons here - prisons have
basic security needs. They are defined in the search strategy
agreed between the governor and the area manager of the respective
establishments. What I am suggesting is that we need to ensure
that in all the establishments these search procedures are being
carried out and that the security procedures have been carried
out because what we discovered at Blantyre was they were not being
carried out.

    159     You see the concern that
I have is a very simple one. It seems to me to be quite clear
from this document that you do not support the ethos of resettlement
prisons because you here request the Director General to search
or to scrutinise similarly all resettlement prisons even without
intelligence, even without special information and even on the
back of a previous search of one of these establishments which
shows no drug abuse at all.

    (Mr Murtagh)  I do support the
whole concept of resettlement under the ethos of Blantyre. My
correspondence with the Governor and the instructions I have given
and the business plan of the establishment reflects what I believe.
I am sure you have already had sight of the document that I issued
to the Governor before there was any awareness of this going on
at the moment. I fully support the resettlement concept. Where
perhaps I might differ from some is that I believe there has to
be a balance and that balance has to take account of public protection
in what we do. The risks are measured risks when we allow prisoners
into the community and the circumstances in which we allow them
into the community. I believe that I am right to do that. Can
I finish, please, because I have not finished answering your question?

    160     Of course.

    (Mr Murtagh)  Secondly, with
regard to the broader issue of resettlement, I have already set
up an additional resettlement unit at Rochester within my area
and I am proposing the further development of another one at Stamford
Hill. I became aware, as I have no doubt you have heard in evidence,
that there was a lack of a clear policy in this area regarding
resettlement. Two years ago, because I felt that through a lack
of guidance and the fact that governors in these establishments
were operating on their own initiative and sometimes on the parameters
of what is acceptable in terms of public risk and taking initiatives
themselves, I felt that there was a need to have clear guidance
and clear policy on resettlement. Initially I brought the governors
of resettlement prisons together with a view to encouraging the
service to develop such a policy which the Director General has
picked up now and which others have. So two years ago I was actually
advocating a clear policy for the service on resettlement rather
than see the situation develop where the whole concept of resettlement
might be put in danger by mistakes being made. I am sorry, I do
not agree with you.

    161     Can I just ask one final
question? You have told us that the manager in charge of education
must have been lying when she said that you told her that the
inmates at this place were beyond redemption. Was the Governor
also lying when he told us this morning that you called him and
told him there were going to be shock/horror probe stories in
the newspapers the next day and when he checked up there were
no such stories and when he checked with you, you told him that
you were winding him up?

    (Mr Murtagh)  I have no knowledge
of what he is talking about. I do not know what he is saying that
I said was going to be in the papers the next day.

    162     You never made those calls?

    (Mr Murtagh)  I do not recall
ever making such calls.

    

Mr Winnick

    163     We have two witnesses who
are lying to us.

    (Mr Murtagh)  I am answering
the questions that I have been asked.

    164     According to you there have
been two statements made to us which are lies?

    (Mr Murtagh)  Mr Winnick, when
I spoke to the education manager I was in the presence of the
prison Governor who I think is a third party who is aware of what
was said. He can confirm that what I am saying is true.

    

Chairman

    165     Mr Narey?

    (Mr Narey)  I thought it important
as a recipient of that note to stress how I received it. I did
not receive it as any suggestion that we needed to do the same
things at Kirklevington or Latchmere but it would have been bizarre
and, indeed, negligent of me not to take a learning from what
we found at Blantyre and get the respective area managers to work
with the prisons. Similarly when we found out the drivers were
driving uninsured the first thing I did was make sure that was
not happening in other areas.

    166     I just want to get into the
boardroom at Swaleside Prison at 6.30 on Friday May 5.

    (Mr Murtagh)  Okay.

    167     Were you both there?

    (Mr Murtagh)  Yes.

    168     Who actually gave the briefing?

    (Mr Podmore)  I gave the briefing.
At that particular meeting there were in the room what I would
describe as the bronze commanders, those were the people with
specific roles leading specific groups of people through the actual
search.

    169   You explained the purpose of the
search to them?

    (Mr Podmore)  Yes. I also at
that point, as I did later on with the bulk of the staff, told
them where exactly they were going because up to that point they
did not know.

    170     Who briefed what we will
call the indians?

    (Mr Podmore)  I did.

    171     You did?

    (Mr Podmore)  Yes.

    172     Can you tell me the terms
in which that briefing was given?

    (Mr Podmore)  Yes. I called all
the staff together. First of all I told them where they were going
because at that point they did not know. I described to them the
nature of Blantyre House because I could not assume people knew
precisely how the prison worked. I would like to think that I
have some understanding of how Blantyre House works in that I
worked with Jim Semple in the early days in 1987 when he set Blantyre
House up. I worked with Jim to arrange for the very first prisoners
to go from Maidstone. Subsequent to that I have now been recruited
by Sir David Ramsbotham as one of his team leaders.

    173     I just want to ask ---

    (Mr Podmore)  No, what I am saying
to you is I am heading up the resettlement thematic on behalf
of Sir David. So what I am trying to say by way of preamble is
that I understood fully the nature of the establishment and I
tried to convey that to the staff that night because I felt it
was important that I tried to share with them some understanding
of what was a relatively unique establishment.

    174     Thank you for that. That
is very helpful.

    (Mr Podmore)  Okay.

    175     What advice, if any, did
you give them about degrees of aggressiveness that they were permitted
to use against the background of your own knowledge of Blantyre
House?

    (Mr Podmore)  It was my belief,
and I shared it with the staff, that the prisoners would co-operate
with the search. The likelihood of that co-operation would be
enhanced by staff behaving and dealing with them in a reasonable
manner.

    176     Yes.

    (Mr Podmore)  One of my prime
concerns that evening was the treatment and conditions of those
prisoners at Blantyre House.

    177     Thank you. What comment,
if any, did you make about the way in which the search was to
be carried out in terms of where they should collect keys from,
for example?

    (Mr Podmore)  There were relatively
few keys for the establishment.

    178     You did not know that at
the time, did you? I am talking now about 6.30, or did you know
that?

    (Mr Podmore)  Yes, I have worked
there. I was temporarily in charge for a period many years ago.

    179     When you say relatively few
keys, what do you mean by that?

    (Mr Podmore)  Well, most establishments
have what is known as class one, class two, class three. Class
one and class two are the main security keys that you would find
on the perimeter of the establishment or on the perimeter of buildings.

    180     Yes.

    (Mr Podmore)  The keys within
Blantyre House are what are known as class three keys.

    181     You would know where they
were kept?

    (Mr Podmore)  I took with me
on the search as a matter of deliberate policy a governor four
who was working with me by the name of Alan Shipton. Alan had
worked at Blantyre House, again with Jim, for a long period of
time and I knew before we went, and it transpired that he had
written the key systems for the establishment and that those key
systems were theoretically still operating because the documents
pertaining to the key systems of the establishment were still
in his own hand.

    182     Right. When you arrived,
did you check the key register? You will be aware that there is
a key check carried out three times a day, the last one following
the 8.30 roll call, so that would be about nine o'clock. Did you
check that register?

    (Mr Podmore)  When we arrived
I would have assumed that a key check had taken place.

    183     I did not ask you that.

    (Mr Podmore)  Did I personally
check them?

    184     Did anybody check the register?

    (Mr Podmore)  As far as I am
aware Alan Shipton did that as part of his attempt to get keys
later on.

    185     Could you write to us and
let us know whether he did, in fact, check that register?

    (Mr Podmore)  You are asking
whether the key register was formally checked on entering the
establishment?

    186     Yes.

    (Mr Podmore)  I can do that for
you, yes.

    187     Can you then tell me, against
your very detailed knowledge, as you explained, of Blantyre House,
what grounds led you to equip some of the officers with sledgehammers
and other instruments of that kind which would anticipate they
were going to have trouble getting into at least some of the rooms?

    (Mr Podmore)  First of all, it
has been said, and I accept that you refute the terminology, but
we did not have sledgehammers. A key part of the search team was
the National Dog Team led by a very senior experienced member
of the security group who I have worked with for many years, not
least at Belmarsh where I worked also. Now they carry, and have
developed over the years, significant expertise. They carry out
lock down searches. They carry out wide ranging security operations,
day in, day out, across the prison service. They do some tremendous
work. Now they have developed, as part of their equipment, a whole
array of things, and one of the many reasons for having them along
is that they are prepared for every eventuality.

    188     Do not let us quibble about
---

    (Mr Podmore)  They had equipment
which was specifically designed to force entry into doors where
entry by normal means was not possible.

    189     Are you aware of any requests
being made by anybody concerned in that raid for keys and being
told that they could not be found?

    (Mr Podmore)  Could you repeat
that?

    190     Are you aware of any of the
officers taking part in the raid requesting keys and being told
they could not be found?

    (Mr Podmore)  Yes, every door
that had to be forced, we looked as far as we could ---

    191     You could not find the keys?

    (Mr Podmore)  We could not find
the keys.

    192     This is why I asked you about
the key register. So the inference then is that some officers
had breached prison discipline by not returning keys to where
they should be returned?

    (Mr Podmore)  I know of at least
one admission of that case on one of the very first sets of keys
we tried to find which was for the catering area.

    193     Are you aware whether that
officer or any other officers have been charged with disciplinary
offences in connection with not returning keys to where they should
be returned?

    (Mr Podmore)  I have no knowledge.

    194     You have no knowledge. Would
you accept from me that no such charges have been made?

    (Mr Podmore)  I would accept
that.

    195     Let us just stay with the
briefing now. At any time, based upon your own personal live knowledge
of Blantyre House, did you question what it was planned to do
there? Did you say to Mr Murtagh "Look are you sure that
we should do this?".

    (Mr Podmore)  No.

    196     All right. Is that because
you did not feel that you had the authority to question it and
you were obeying instructions in that sense?

    (Mr Podmore)  I think it is well
known my ability and willingness to question almost anything that
I come across in the prison service.

    197     So you had no reason to doubt
that this was a sensible thing to do?

    (Mr Podmore)  Reference has been
made to the Chaucer Team. You may or may not be aware that I headed
- well I did until I left to join the Inspectorate - up the Chaucer
Team and I set up the model. In terms of the intelligence issues,
I was well aware of those intelligence issues.

    198     Okay. Let me just get on
to the actual search and then I will hand over to my colleagues.
There was a considerable amount of damage done around the prison,
not just locks expertly opened, as it were, prised open, door
frames smashed down, doors smashed off their hinges, is that right?

    (Mr Podmore)  I would refute
anything other than the technique by which the National Dog Team
---

    199     I am not asking about the
technique, I am asking about the amount of damage. Is that a reasonable
description of some of the damage done in the prison that night?

    (Mr Podmore)  I would not have
used that terminology, no. There was forced entry to a number
of doors.

    200     Door frames were smashed
from the wall and doors smashed down. We have seen photographs
of this, you have not?

    (Mr Podmore)  I was there.

    201     I know you were there, you
did not see any of this?

    (Mr Podmore)  I saw doors damaged.
I saw door frames damaged. When you are forcing entry into a locked
door by means which the dog handlers are well practised in doing,
there will be damage, that is inevitable.

    202     What was the point of breaking
down both doors which led into the same medical room which also
included dental and x-ray equipment, what was the point of that,
given that prisoners are never ever allowed in there on their
own?

    (Mr Podmore)  The strategy for
the search which is a fairly routine strategy in lock down searches
is that there will be a hand search by search teams. In this case
there were five teams of three searchers who were in direct contact
with prisoners. There were 15 staff in contact with the prisoners
in the prison area. The other element of the search is that the
non prisoner areas would be entered and the ammunition and explosive
dogs and the drug dogs would do a sweep of those areas. The object
of the search was to carry out the A&E, the ammunition and
explosive search, and the drug dog search in all those non prisoner
areas.

    

Mr Linton

    203     Do I take it you were looking
for firearms?

    (Mr Podmore)  We were looking
for everything. One extreme would be firearms, ammunition and
explosives and the other extreme the relatively routine contraband.

    

Chairman

    204     Are you aware that two hours
before those doors were broken down, as a result of a prisoner
being suspected of taking drugs and he said "I am on medication
which may give this result", keys were used to go into that
centre to find the prisoner's records to confirm what he said
was the case, then they were locked up again and then two hours
later the doors were smashed down?

    (Mr Podmore)  I have no knowledge
of this.

    205     You have no knowledge of
it?

    (Mr Podmore)  No.

    206     You were in charge of this,
were you?

    (Mr Podmore)  I was indeed.

    207     Were you in the training
centre or in the prison?

    (Mr Podmore)  I was in the training
centre which is the normal way in which something like this would
be conducted. Towards the end of the evening I did go into the
prison to see for myself how things were going, how the place
was being left and to talk to the searchers and talk to prisoners.

    208     As a result of you doing
that that night, were you satisfied that there had been no excessive
force used anywhere in the prison that you saw?

    (Mr Podmore)  Yes, I was.

    

Mr Winnick

    209     What was the estimated cost
of the damage?

    (Mr Podmore)  The figures vary
so I am at a loss to put a precise figure on it.

    (Mr Narey)  The cost to us was
about £2,500, Mr Winnick. The commercial value, had we had
to buy materials which we manufacture ourselves, would have been
about £6,000.

    210     Yes, that is the sum I heard.
Mr Podmore, the door to the Chaplain's office was broken into,
amongst all the other doors. It was felt that the prisoners had
concealed things without the knowledge of the priest?

    (Mr Podmore)  With respect I
have described how a search of this nature is carried out and
all non prison areas - all non prison areas - are swept for ammunition
and explosives and for drugs, that is all the non prison areas.

    211     On the basis the key could
not be found to the Chaplain's office?

    (Mr Podmore)  Also I would expect,
and have experienced it myself, for my own office to be searched.
It is not necessarily casting any doubt on the integrity of one
individual, it is about the integrity of a particular type of
search.

    212     Was any attempt made to find
the Chaplain and ask him to open it?

    (Mr Podmore)  No.

    

Mr Cawsey

    213     On that point, I spoke to
the Chaplain yesterday who said he was in that office that afternoon
and had handed his keys in in the normal way so they were clearly
there when he left the prison.

    (Mr Podmore)  I can only repeat,
and this is clearly a slur on my own personal integrity, the assertion
is that I went like some rambo raider beating my way around the
establishment, smashing in doors for the fun of it ---

    214     They are your words not ours.

    (Mr Podmore)  The assertion that
I would not attempt to gain proper entry into any room, the assertion
that I would simply say "Okay, let us take the doors off,
let us batter the doors down" I find quite disturbing.

    

Mr Winnick

    215     Mr Podmore, I do not think
slurs on your integrity is the appropriate way to describe what
we are trying to do. This inquiry is to try and find out, as far
as we can, what happened during the night of 5/6. Therefore to
start making remarks like you have made does not help us whatever.
We are trying to find precisely, as far as possible, the truth
and we will make a report accordingly.

    (Mr Podmore)  My apologies. You
must understand that very much has been said about this search
and this is my first opportunity to personally put my side of
the story.

    Mr Cawsey:  We are pleased to give it
to you.

    

Mr Winnick

    216     What was found in the Chaplain's
office?

    (Mr Podmore)  A sum of about
£400.

    Mr Winnick:  What happened to that money?

    

Mr Malins

    217     The total money recovered,
which we were told was "large quantities of money" that
is what the Committee was told, paragraph 12 on 16 May, "large
quantities of money" turns out to be £370 of which £120
was the Chaplain's.

    (Mr Podmore)  I find that highly
unusual. It was taken, its nature ascertained and it was returned.

    

Mr Winnick

    218     There were no monies found
which should not have been there?

    (Mr Podmore)  If I was the governor
of an establishment I would strongly discourage, to put it mildly,
the retention of such large amounts of cash in a non secure part
of the establishment.

    

Mr Howarth

    219     Are you suggesting that the
Chaplain was somehow irresponsible?

    (Mr Podmore)  I make no comment
about how the money got there. I have not been party to any further
investigations as to how it arrived there.

    

Mr Winnick

    220     It was not stolen money,
unauthorised?

    (Mr Podmore)  I am afraid I have
no idea.

    (Mr Narey)  It was not but it
should not have been held in his drawer in his office.

    Mr Winnick:  We have got that cleared
up. It was not unauthorised. It was not stolen money in any way.

    Mr Malins:  Chaplain to blame.

    

Mr Winnick

    221    The Chaplain, as my colleague
is saying, clearly to blame in your view?

    (Mr Narey)  Not in the least.
All that Mr Podmore is explaining is that it is unwise - and I
have spoken to the Chaplain about this and I believe his account
entirely - to have a sum of money of that magnitude. £100
may not be very much to us but it is a large sum of money in the
context of a prison. It should have been securely locked in a
safe in the administration.

    222    Can I just ask Mr Podmore
about the board of visitors. Two were present, I understand, at
the beginning of the search?

    (Mr Podmore)  That is correct.

    223    Up to what time?

    (Mr Podmore)  My recollection
is 12.35.

    224    Were they under the impression
that no further action was to be taken, hence they left the premises
or not?

    (Mr Podmore)  No. They must speak
for themselves but at 12.35 the search was barely half way through.
At 12.35 I think we had barely started: one of the key elements
of my briefing which I did not get an opportunity to refer to
was that the specific brief of the principal officer in charge
of the search of the prisoner areas, who was responsible for the
five teams of three searchers, was to spend as much time as was
necessary walking around the areas, talking to prisoners, explaining
to them what was happening and doing her best in what were clearly
very difficult and unusual circumstances. She was to go as far
as she possibly could to allay the fears of the prisoners. That
took, I think, at least a couple of hours. My response when she
contacted me and said she was worried about how long it was taking
to start was "Take as long as we need to make sure that the
prisoners fully understand and as far as possible we have their
co-operation in the process".

    225    Would it not have been far
better, if I may just put it to you, if the board of visitors
had been encouraged, the two, to stay or their colleagues to come
to the prison to watch what was being done to act as independent
witnesses?

    (Mr Podmore)  I was astonished
they left.

    226    Perhaps they left on the basis
that they were not aware of what was going to happen?

    (Mr Podmore)  When I first learned
they were leaving I assumed that someone else was coming in their
place. I was astonished that at that stage of the operation they
would choose to leave. There was clearly an awful lot to do. My
experience with boards of visitors at Swaleside and at Belmarsh
- with whom I have liaised very closely and would like to think
I had a very positive relationship over the years - was such that
that was beyond my experience. I was astonished that they went.

    Mr Winnick:  If you read the evidence
of what was said to us yesterday, Mr Podmore, you might get a
different impression.

    

Mr Malins

    227    One way I would like to describe
this raid is a complete sledgehammer to crack a nut. Can I just
say this: the inference we would draw from previous evidence to
us would be there was a vast amount of items there which were
illegal and dangerous, etc. Let me just analyse a couple of these
for a moment. Firstly, Mr Murtagh's report talks about a prisoner
having a lump hammer, a spirit level, very useful to prisoners
to help them readily breach the perimeter fence. Further elsewhere
we are told about the spirit level being of some use for an escape
attempt. Now let us get real. If this prisoner is working outside
the prison and using a spirit level and a lump hammer in his job
do you think it is going to be easier for him to escape from the
prison simply by going to work one day and not coming back or
putting a spirit level against the fence at midnight and hitting
it with a lump hammer? Which do you think is the easier?

    (Mr Narey)  May I answer that,
Mr Malins, because I heard some humour about this yesterday.

    228    It is not just humour, it
is a real point.

    (Mr Narey)  First of all, I will
share with you, I have known of a number of prisons where prisoners
return from release and then seek to escape. The point about the
equipment which was found, which included an electric drill, was
not that the particular prisoner who was using it outside might
use it but another prisoner might use it. Can I just put on the
record, because I have heard a number of times, particularly in
the press - and I have been frustrated myself and not been able
to put on the record my side of the story, I do not want to prejudice
my views here - that the suggestion that things found there were
not of importance is quite untrue. There were three unauthorised
mobile phones, one of them had a SIM card removed before we got
to it but two of them had been used by prisoners at Blantyre House
to speak to prominent criminals in the North West of England.
There were credit cards which they should not have had, a passport.

    229.    Leaving aside for the moment
those other matters, I have been addressing the issue of the so-called
escape equipment and pointing out the silliness of the argument.
Also 12 cameras were found. Now, were these not part of the camera
club?

    (Mr Narey)  Again, if I may,
I think this is for me to answer. There were cameras, they should
not have been in cells. The governor had no authority to let them
be in cells. It is absolutely central to prison security and to
prisoners that we do not allow cameras. One of the men who had
a camera had taken photographs and had photographs in his possession
of keys in the prison.

    

Chairman

    230.    Sorry, let us just get this,
you said "keys in the prison"?

    (Mr Narey)  Yes.

    231.    You used the plural. We were
told yesterday it was a photograph of one key.

    (Mr Narey)  Perhaps it was.

    232.    No, no, you said the plural,
which is it?

    (Mr Narey)  I do not know.

    233.    You do not know? Mr Narey,
shall I tell you then?

    (Mr Narey)  Yes.

    234.    It was a key to the prisoner's
door of which he took a photograph.

    (Mr Narey)  I would still not
want any prisoner to take a key to his own door ---

    235.    It was part of his project.

    (Mr Narey)  I think that was
unwise. May I put on record the list, Chairman, I think it is
very important.

    236.    Yes.

    (Mr Narey)  Cameras, some cannabis,
some ecstasy ---

    

Mr Howarth

    237.    How much?

    (Mr Narey)  A very small amount
of cannabis.

    238.    How small?

    (Mr Narey)  I do not know.

    239.    Well it is time, Mr Narey
---

    (Mr Narey)   And a few ecstasy
tablets.

    240.    Do not please misrepresent
to the public that somehow this raid divulged a substantial or
significant quantity of drugs, it did not.

    (Mr Narey)  I have not sought
to do that, Mr Howarth. My submission to you makes it absolutely
clear that it was a small amount. There were some ecstasy tablets,
very few again, although I put it to you there were prisoners
in the prison who were reformed and I think that would be a worry.

    241.    They may have been for the
dogs, to keep the sniffer dogs current with the sniffing out of
cannabis.

    (Mr Narey)  I am sorry, I do
not understand, Mr Howarth.

    242.    You understand more about
the way sniffer dogs work.

    (Mr Narey)  There are no dogs
routinely at Blantyre House.

    243.    No, they may not be routinely
at Blantyre House but the suggestion was put to us that was what
they may have been there for.

    (Mr Narey)  If I could continue.
I accept, and I am delighted that prisoners were not taking drugs
at Blantyre, they are all drug free before they go there. We should
still be worried about the presence of ecstasy tablets in their
possession when prisoners are going out. There was a prisoner
very recently working at a school in Kent. Tattoo equipment, car
radios, presumably stolen, a stanley knife and other knives, and
extensive hard core pornography. This is not stuff to lightly
dismiss, Chairman.

    

Mr Winnick

    244.    The executive report concludes
by saying that the argument put forward was that "...nothing
had been found to have gone wrong or no more than one might expect..."
which does not hold water. It does not indicate, by any means,
that some terrible revelations came to light.

    (Mr Narey)  I agree with that.
As I will be able to tell you in closed session, it may have been
that we could have found something considerably more serious but
the suggestion that nothing was found would be quite misleading.

    

Mr Howarth

    245.    Chairman, can I go back to
the actual raid itself because there have been complaints about
the style of the raid. My colleague, Mr Malins, suggested a sledgehammer
to crack a nut. Other people feel that it was a disproportionate
response. In evidence to us Michael Duff, one of the tutors at
the prison, who ran the photography course - it was not a club,
it was a course leading to qualifications, some of the inmates
have gone out and pursued a career outside now equipped with photographic
skills - wrote to us and said when he returned to his classroom
on the Monday after the search: "... the sight that greeted
me was one of complete devastation. The metal store cupboard that
I keep students' work and camera equipment in had been forced
open and the contents were strewn about the floor. On inspecting
the damage it seems that one of the students' work is missing.
This student had produced a level three folder to a high standard.
... did a great deal of hard work and study to achieve this and
he has been a very dedicated student. To have his work missing
was bad enough but I cannot understand why it was necessary for
the other student's work to be thrown on the floor and kicked
around". You were the silver commander, presumably the gold
commander is sitting next to you.

    (Mr Podmore)  No, that is not
correct.

    246.    Who was the gold commander?

    (Mr Podmore)  The gold commander
was Michael Spur who was the area manager.

    247.    You were the silver commander,
you were in charge to the extent that you were there.

    (Mr Podmore)  Indeed.

    248.    What was the justification
for that? Did you know about this?

    (Mr Podmore)  No. I would like
to answer the allegation you are putting before me. I have said
already that as part of the team for the search I had someone
by the name of Alan Shipton who used to work there. Also on the
ground throughout a significant part of the night was the new
Governor.

    249.    He did not know the place,
he was brand new.

    (Mr Podmore)  Also on the ground
was Brian Pollit, who had been the Governor there for some considerable
period of time. Also, I had with me the head of the National Dog
Team, a man with, as I have said already, great experience and
integrity. Now I needed and I wanted those senior people around,
walking about, talking, supervising all the things which were
going on. Towards the end of the evening I went into the establishment
myself. Throughout the key part of the evening there were also
members of the Board of Visitors. I am as saddened as anyone else
that they did not choose to stay on. Now I did not see what you
are describing to me. Neither was any such scene described to
me by any of those key senior people that I had on the ground,
precisely to supervise the activities which were carried out.

    

Mr Winnick

    250.    You justify everything that
happened? You have no regrets about any incident which occurred
on the night of 5/6?

    (Mr Podmore)  I have not said
that. I regret very much that it was necessary to force entry
into certain rooms.

    

Mr Howarth

    251.    Was it necessary to damage
prisoners' work? What sort of example does that send to the prisoner
about respect for other people's property?

    (Mr Podmore)  Firstly, the initial
reference you made to the prisoner's work was I believe a file
of photographs that was part of the course work for that particular
prisoner. That was removed and I believe - and I may stand corrected
- it has been subsequently returned. The allegation that other
work was damaged, destroyed and thrown around the place, I am
afraid I have to refute.

    

Chairman

    252.    Mr Podmore, you cannot simply
refute it. Is he lying to us? Is that instructor lying to us?
Why would he make that up?

    (Mr Podmore)  No. I am saying
that when we left I was adamant that we checked things, that we
looked around, that we made sure that as far as possible - yes,
okay, doors had been damaged - that sort of thing had not taken
place and did not take place.

    253.    Let us try this another way.
If that is as it is alleged, would you still defend that?

    (Mr Podmore)  Of course not.

    254.    Right.

    (Mr Podmore)  Of course not.
If it did happen, and I cannot account for the action of every
single member of staff who was under my command that night, if
it did happen, and it was one of them, then I am responsible,
I have no problem with that.

    

Mr Cawsey

    255.    I am still trying to get
to the end of my Chaplain's questions. We always seem to get off
that subject. When I visited the Chaplain's office yesterday and
spoke to the Chaplain, he told me about his key, as far as he
was concerned, being readily available. He wanted to show me,
also, that the team broke down the door to gain entry but then
left untouched a large locked cabinet. Now we have spoken about
there being a clear strategy for this search. What strategy has
the idea that you break down the door to gain access to an area
and then leave a large cabinet locked and untouched?

    (Mr Podmore)  Can I help you
by explaining to you the way in which A&E dogs and drug dogs
work? They are able to detect the presence of whatever substance
they are trained to detect in a cupboard. So breaking open a cupboard
if it is not readily accessible is not necessary.

    

Mr Stinchcombe

    256.    You were looking for money
in the Chaplain's office amongst other things. You took 120 odd
quid out. Why not open the cupboard as well?

    (Mr Podmore)  No. May I refer
back to the overall strategy of the search which I alluded to
earlier which was to check the non prisoner areas via the use
of A&E dogs and drug dogs for those substances. Now if they
came across cash in that context then it was quite appropriate
for them to remove that cash.

    

Mr Winnick

    257.    The Chaplain was not hiding
any drugs?

    (Mr Podmore)  As far as I am
aware there were no indications by the drug dogs ---

    Mr Winnick:  That surprises me a great
deal, Mr Podmore.

    

Mr Cawsey

    258.    Was this an intelligence
driven, briefed search of Blantyre House or was it a fishing expedition?

    (Mr Podmore)  I would not describe
it as a fishing expedition.

    259.    You would not describe it
as a fishing expedition. You have obviously done these sorts of
searches before at other institutions other than Blantyre House.
If we go through what has been found, we have a small amount of
cannabis, so small the Director General cannot quantify it. We
have a small number of ecstasy tablets. We have what the Director
General says is a considerable quantity of pornography, it was
actually seven items, in a 120 man prison. Compared with other
searches you have done, would you say this was a considerable
amount of contraband and the like, in your experience?

    (Mr Podmore)  I have recently
visited Kirklevington as part of the Chief Inspector's recent
inspection and I would have to say, having spent a week in Kirklevington
walking around, talking to prisoners, talking to staff, that I
would not have expected to find the same amount of material in
Kirklevington Grange.

    260.    I did not ask about Kirklevington
Grange, I asked from your experience, which you have got in other
prison institutions, would you say what you found in those searches
would be higher or less?

    (Mr Podmore)  My main experience
was searching in places like Belmarsh, which is a very high security
prison. So it is not unreasonable to draw a comparison with other
sorts of establishments. The comparison I would attempt to draw
would be with a similar type of establishment.

    261.    But in a high security prison
you might say that drugs would be even tighter to get through.
If there was only a small amount of cannabis and a couple of ecstasy
tablets, I am asking you whether that is a good catch from your
perspective or whether it can be regarded as a very small amount
compared with other prisons you have actually searched?

    (Mr Podmore)  It is a small amount
of drugs, that is clearly obvious. As the Director General said,
if the ecstasy tablets were not for use within the establishment
where were they for use? I have to say, I do not know whether
you have looked at the profile of the prisoners. It has been mentioned
already that they were drug free when they got there so it seems
unlikely that Blantyre was housing hard drug users in any event.

    262.    Why the search then?

    (Mr Podmore)  The search was
for a range of things, anything from drugs, ammunition and explosives,
through to relatively mundane things like ---

    Mr Malins:  Spirit levels.

    

Mr Cawsey

    263.    Spirit levels and pornographic
photographs.

    (Mr Podmore)  Can I address the
point about the builder's tools. We seem to have lost sight of
the fact that this prison houses I believe 20 lifers?

    (Mr Narey)  20 lifers, yes.

    (Mr Podmore)  One of whom is
serving a long sentence, albeit a long time ago, for the murder
of a police inspector.

    

Chairman

    264.    Finishing a sentence.

    (Mr Podmore)  Indeed. There are
still 20 lifers in that establishment.

    

Mr Cawsey

    265.    Mr Podmore, you have just
said that this search was for drugs, ammunition and explosives.
So we know you have got virtually no drugs. What ammunition and
explosives were there?

    (Mr Podmore)  I have said, the
brief was to look for anything from the range at one extreme of
drugs and ammunition and explosives across the spectrum. I did
not know what we would find.

    Mr Hoyle:  A fishing expedition.

    

Mr Cawsey

    266.    It is a fishing expedition.
Let me finish, Mr Podmore. At the end of the search, do you have
a de-brief of your officers?

    (Mr Podmore)  Yes.

    267.    Of the officers who took
part in that, what were their comments about what they found?

    (Mr Podmore)  The main comment
I got from the staff who I spoke to was the quantity of belongings
in cells.

    Mr Cawsey:  Nothing to do with drugs
or ammunition or explosives.

    

Chairman

    268.    They had a lot of personal
gear, is that what you are saying?

    (Mr Podmore)  Yes. I am sharing
with you what they were saying.

    

Mr Cawsey

    269.    That was what I asked you
to do. I am grateful for that. Do you think there was a feeling
of "what was all that about then"?

    (Mr Podmore)  You would have
to ask them. I cannot speak for them. I am sharing with you the
main bit of feedback that I got back from the staff that I spoke
to.

    270.    Mr Narey, related to this
drug issue, since these changes have taken place at Blantyre House,
which you have authorised, the drug situation at Blantyre House
now is very much worse than it was before that raid.

    (Mr Narey)  That is news to me,
Mr Cawsey. Why is it very much worse?

    271.    You are the Director General
and I think six months down the line you should know.

    (Mr Narey)  Well tell me your
evidence to say that the drug situation is very much worse.

    272.    Talking to prisoners and
inmates at Blantyre House yesterday.

    (Mr Narey)  Yes.

    273.    Some of them were saying
for the first time in their experience of Blantyre House heroin
was available for sale.

    (Mr Narey)  I can promise you,
Mr Cawsey, if heroin is available for sale in Blantyre House now,
certainly it was more easily for sale before the events of 5 May.
Certainly, although the prison is still relatively insecure, as
far as secure prisons go, there is considerably more searching
going on in that prison than previously. There has been the removal
of certain prisoners who might have been involved in those activities.

    

Chairman

    274.    No heroin was found prior
to 5 May.

    (Mr Narey)  No. I did not say
that. Mr Cawsey said that heroin is now available in the prison.

    275.    Yes?

    (Mr Narey)  I am saying if that
is true, and I am not sure if I believe it, I am saying if it
is available now it would certainly have been more easily available
on 5 May.

    276.    On what do you base that?

    (Mr Narey)  Because security
has been improved since 5 May.

    

Mr Cawsey

    277.    But it has not, has it? You
have had more abscondence and escape. What sort of security are
you talking about?

    (Mr Narey)  I will tell you the
sort of security, Mr Cawsey, the security which makes sure that
we take away the nonsense of when I go to a prison, to Blantyre
House, and hand my mobile phone in, prisoners do not, they take
them straight into the prison. When prisoners go into a prison
I expect them to be searched, they were not being searched.

    

Chairman

    278.    Mr Narey, you know why that
is. This gets to the nub of what this is about. You know the emphasis
that was put on trust there.

    (Mr Narey)  Yes.

    279.    It may offend. Certainly
it offended Mr Murtagh.

    (Mr Narey)  It did not offend
me.

    280.    If you are going to run a
regime which is based on trust, you are going to have different
levels of security from your bog standard cat C prison.

    (Mr Narey)  Indeed and trust
is very important. I am fully committed to the belief that prisoners
can change. I would not have spent all the years that I have in
this service if I did not believe that. You have to pepper that
with some realism about temptation.

    281.    Yes.

    (Mr Narey)  You must do that.
A measure of trust in Blantyre House, if I may, Chairman, was
that ten prisoners were so trustworthy they did not insure their
cars; two others did not have MOTs. We would have had a very different
view if a child had been killed in Tunbridge Wells.

Mr Cawsey

    282.    Mr Narey, not for the first
time today you are misrepresenting findings from Blantyre House,
whether maliciously or just through lack of information I have
not quite decided. Is it not the case that with some of those
people who did not have - and I accept did not have - valid insurance
of their cars that was because the brokers had said it was valid
but it was actually a disagreement between the broker and the
insurance companies which neither the prisoners nor indeed the
staff at Blantyre House could possibly have known?

    (Mr Narey)   A rather larger
number than ten had not identified to their insurer they were
serving prisoners. My information, and I can check it, is that
ten, in the event of an accident, would not have been insured.

    

Chairman

    283.    I am sorry, that is not the
evidence we have had. We have had evidence given to us that some
of those who for example simply gave their address as "Blantyre
House", when the insurance companies were phoned up they
said "We know from the postcode it is a prison". Some
insurance companies take it and some do not. Please do not just
telescope all these things together. It does make a difference.

    (Mr Narey)  My belief, my information
- I will check it - is that ten of the prisoners were not insured.
I heard Mr McLennan-Murray express considerable regret about that
this morning and he was quite right to do so.

    

Mr Cawsey

    284.    All I am saying is I think
you are misrepresenting the degree to which the prisoners were
misleading or abusing the trust. You were using that as an example
of abuse of trust.

    (Mr Narey)  I am trying to demonstrate,
Mr Cawsey, that if you run a regime such as Blantyre House - and
Blantyre House is very different from Kirklevington and Latchmere
House, it is much higher risk, there are more serious prisoner/criminals
there, serving longer sentences - it is a high risk operation,
risk management is central, you have got to be realistic about
that.

    285.    I accept that entirely but
can you explain to me, if your changes are to improve security
why have there been the abscondence and escapes since these changes
were made?

    (Mr Narey)  My understanding
- again I will have to look at this - is that we have had one
escape since May 5. A few weeks before May 5 there was an attempt
to escape, a serious attempt to escape, by three prisoners and
those prisoners were apprehended and transferred to other prisons.
I draw no conclusions and in fact there were three serious attempts
before May 5 and one escape subsequent to May 5.

    286.    There have been some absconders
as well?

    (Mr Narey)  There have been absconders
before as well.

    287.    Not in the same quantity.
It has declined considerably in the six months since you made
the changes.

    (Mr Narey)  In the six months
up to May I understand there were five absconders, about the same
number as previously. I do not measure the effectiveness of prisons
on their popularity. If prisoners choose to abscond I do not think
"Well we must be doing something wrong".

    288.    No, no. It is interesting
that before May an attempted escape failed but with your improved
security the one after May succeeded.

    (Mr Narey)  I am afraid the reality
of Blantyre House, as the previous Governor made clear this morning,
is such that there is a risk involved in that. It means the balance
of security must be right. I am not wanting to turn it into a
Cat C prison. I just want proper measures to be taken so the prisoners
are supervised when they are at work and they are searched when
they come into establishments, and things like that.

    289.    Yesterday we had evidence
from a prisoner at Blantyre House, who had a placement out in
the community, due for parole in about six weeks' time, and he
had a paid job, about £480 a month, with a guarantee of a
job the day he walks out of the prison at £22,000 a year
plus a car plus expenses. He has clearly done extremely well and
you have stopped that placement and jeopardised that relationship.
What is the gain in the resettlement policy that leads to that?

    (Mr Narey)  I know nothing of
that case.

    290.    Well, take it from me, that
is true.

    (Mr Narey)  Let me answer your
question, Mr Cawsey. Since May 5 we have had two job placements
stopped. One of them may be the one you referred to, I do not
know. The other one has been restored. Two more have been found
and we are on the verge of introducing perhaps as many as ten
additional work places. I am committed to the ethos of Blantyre
House. I am committed that prisoners will be given every opportunity
to demonstrate their fitness for release. I will look into the
case you mentioned. I do not know about it.

    291.    I am pleased you are going
to look into that. Finally, because I do not want to take any
more of your time, other colleagues want to come in, can I say
this: what do you think the result of your decisions has been
on the performance of Blantyre House and the morale of the staff
and the local authority workers and the volunteers who were involved
in this? How do you think they feel about Blantyre House now?

    (Mr Narey)  I know from my own
visit to the establishment a few weeks ago when I spoke to all
the staff and my numerous discussions with members of the Board
of Visitors, that morale has been knocked and it is very important
that we pick it up. I put it to you, Mr Cawsey, the changes that
have been made at this prison where morale is supposed to have
been destroyed are that the senior management team has been changed,
four prisoners have been removed and not returned. You have the
same staff, the same prisoners and there is no reason at all why
all that was good about Blantyre House cannot continue. There
is a greater consideration and acceptance of the need to protect
the public. Some of the things which were happening I believe
were unacceptable. I am prepared to mention some of those now
but there is a great deal more to mention in closed session.

    Mr Cawsey:  Just to finish then - this
is not really a question, it is a comment for your ears as the
Director General - you can take it from me then, and I am sure
colleagues had the same experience, that yesterday we could not
find anybody who could have a single good thing to say about the
post 5 May regime.

    

Mrs Dean

    292.    What made you think that
over 80 prison officers involved in this search would be necessary?
Why 80? Why 84? Why that number?

    (Mr Podmore)  Would you like
me to run through the breakdown of how that 80 odd was made up?

    293.    Yes.

    (Mr Podmore)  Clearly there was
myself and other senior managers that I have referred to. There
was the need to run a command suite in the education area. There
was the dog team, which routinely consists of ten dog handlers
and 20 dogs, they have two dogs each with different specialisms.
The bulk of the staff - I will not go into the full detail, the
information is available to you - consisted of the search teams.
I have made reference already to the fact the search teams were
five teams of three, 15 staff. I know it has been described that
we descended on the place like rambo raiders descending from helicopters,
body armour, goodness knows what, that is complete and utter nonsense.
The searchers were in civilian clothing. They entered the building
and they liaised with the prisoners. They ascertained the co-operation
of the prisoners. It was 15 prisoners (sic) in the house block
who were doing most of the routine searches. They were later augmented
because of the time it was taking, because of the amount of equipment
available, by others. The other main group of staff were two teams
of what is termed C&R units, control and restraint teams,
two teams of 14. They were there as a precautionary measure should
there be any problems with the prisoners.

    

Chairman

    294.    Were they in uniform?

    (Mr Podmore)  They were in uniform.
They were not in riot gear. They did not have body armour, as
has been alleged continuously by the press, and I think by my
own Association. That would not be the normal way in which they
were deployed. The only time at which any member of staff donned
any sort of protective gear was initially. If you are familiar
with the place you will know there is a closed courtyard, overlooked
by the cells. At the start of the search it is routine to have
someone outside the cell windows to observe whether any kind of
contraband would be thrown out. It is reasonable for anyone in
that kind of situation who is overlooked by prisoners in their
cells to wear some form of protective clothing. All the other
talk of body armour and helicopters and SAS style raids is complete
and utter nonsense.

    

Mrs Dean

    295.    Who was responsible for breaking
doors down? Which of these groups?

    (Mr Podmore)  That would have
been at the hands of the dog teams because they had charge of
the equipment to do it.

    296.    Are you aware that we have
been told that Mr Shipton appeared once the medical room had been
broken down, certainly two hours after it had been opened by a
team, saying "Why did you not wait until we had a key"?

    (Mr Podmore)  I am not aware
of that.

    297.    You are not aware of that.
Did you say at the briefing that the prisoners were in control
of the prison?

    (Mr Podmore)  That is nonsense.

    298.    Either figuratively or not?

    (Mr Podmore)  Complete nonsense.

    299.    It was not said at all?

    (Mr Podmore)  No.

    

Mr Linton

    300.    I am looking forward to getting
on to broader subjects, such as trust and the resettlement ethos.
I just want to try to explain to Mr Podmore what our difficulty
is about the nature of this search. I think everybody completely
understands that some things were found as a result of this search
which were very serious, including the fact that several people
had failed to declare that they were prisoners on their insurance
and also the charity frauds not being accounted for. I understand
that is now being investigated and as far as I understand it it
is a question of dishonesty. For a lock down search, and I am
not subscribing to any of these wild exaggerations that have been
made about it, even without all of those exaggerations there are
half a dozen things about it that seem unusual to us. Number one,
the fact that force had to be used and the keys were not found,
although admittedly keys had been left, which one must admit is
strange. Second, I would maintain that there were not very significant
finds as a result of it, certainly no positive tests on the drugs
which is almost unheard of in any category of prison. Third, it
was carried out at night and I do not understand why that was
necessary. Fourth, and perhaps most importantly of all, most mystifying
to us is that the governing Governor was not informed about this
in advance, which I think is very unusual. Fifth, it was felt
necessary for it to be carried out by an outside team You have
given very full replies to most of these points and maybe we should
not keep the subject going forever but the problem for us is there
are only two possible explanations for all of this. Either the
intelligence that you had was very poor and misleading, or it
was a disproportionate reaction. Mr Narey said in his report that
he did not feel that it was a disproportionate reaction. We are
left in a position where we cannot make all of the facts fit together.
The suspicion that we have, and I am really asking you to put
it at rest, is having instituted a search on intelligence which
then turned out to be that you got much less than you expected
for it, there would be a natural human tendency to want to look
at something to justify the scale of the search. I found in the
report on the management of Blantyre House some evidence that
maybe this is what is going on. I will just quote to you from
this report. This is not one of the bits that is in any way confidential.
It points out that "the argument often put forward because
nothing has been found to have gone wrong, or no more than one
might expect, does not hold water. There have been serious difficulties
at Blantyre House in the past six years." This is the bit
that worries me enormously: "We are sure that it is likely
that there have been ones of which we are not aware", almost
as though there was an attempt to find problems even though you
actually returned from the search with very little to show for
it. We just want to be assured either in the private session or
in some other way that there really was justification for a search.
We know there were some things found but a search on this scale
at night, with 84 people, not informing the Governor and with
the use of outside forces, in the history of lock up searches,
as far as we understand it, this was quite an exceptional search.

    (Mr Narey)  I think I should
answer that, if I may, Mr Linton. You are quite right, although
I have identified the things that were found here were still serious,
we did not find what we might have thought was there. I need to
explain in closed session the full concerns and the intelligence
which led me to make a decision on this. I do not think a decision
to make a search can be justified retrospectively on what you
find. I have just had at Full Sutton Prison, Wakefield Prison
and Long Lartin Prison, lock down for, in each case, more than
24 hours each where we have conducted extensive searches and in
none of those situations found what we thought might be there.
We do very many more searches than those that are justified by
what we find. The decision has to be made, and I made the decision,
to conduct this search on the basis of what was known to me at
that time, as I will be able to tell the Committee in closed session.
Because I was aware that you might be sceptical about that intelligence
I have gone back to those sources and asked them and they agreed
to give me much greater and specific details, which I think you
will find convincing.

    Mr Linton:  I look forward to it.

    

Mr Malins

    301.    I will just tell you what
really worries me about this, Mr Narey, is when the Committee
was spoken to on 16 May, being told respectively by the Minister
and yourself that there was "a quite frightening amount of
contraband material" and "large quantities of money".
That is the sort of phrase which in effect makes us think that
there is a gold mine of stuff that should not be there. When we
see an internal document confirming that cash was only £370,
of which £120 was the Chaplain's, nine mobile phones, bank
cards, cameras, building tools, a spirit level, hard pornography,
we turn over to find where the real stuff is and none is there.
It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that on 16 May we were
not given the correct picture.

    (Mr Narey)  I am sorry if you
think that was the case, Mr Malins. I do think those things that
we found were very serious. I have explained that already and
I have tried to tell you why. There were things there which prisoners
could escape with, for example the possession of a passport, and
the Prison Service would have been held up to ridicule. I accept
and volunteer that we did not find everything that we might have
found relative to the intelligence which was in my possession.

    

Mr Stinchcombe

    302.    Can I just ask a few further
questions, Mr Podmore, about the search and what the briefing
was and what the mechanism was. You have said that you never used
the words in the briefing that the prison was "under the
control of the prisoners"?

    (Mr Podmore)  That is correct.

    303.    Did you ever use the words
"the prison was awash with drugs"?

    (Mr Podmore)  I never used that
phrase, refute it totally and absolutely.

    304.    Did anybody use those words?

    (Mr Podmore)  Not to my knowledge.

    305.    Have you heard those words
used at all?

    (Mr Podmore)  In relation to
Blantyre House?

    306.    In relation to Blantyre House?

    (Mr Podmore)  No.

    307.    Why is it that when we went
round the prison yesterday so many of the officers to whom we
talked had been told by colleagues who undertook the search that
they were briefed that the prison was awash with drugs and under
the control of the prisoners?

    (Mr Podmore)  I cannot comment.

    308.    Why did the Prison Officers'
Association have the same words in front of them?

    (Mr Podmore)  I can only tell
you the briefing I gave to staff. I am either a liar or I am not.

    309.    I am not suggesting that
at all, I am just trying to understand how it is that we have
been led to believe that many of the people undertaking that search
were told in those terms.

    (Mr Podmore)  Can I perhaps give
you a rationale why I would not have said that, why it is highly
unlikely that I would have said that. I was Governor of Swaleside
for some four years and at Swaleside I had a number of projects,
offending behaviour projects. I also ran the largest drug treatment
community in the prison service, that was a 120 bed specific drug
treatment unit. That was providing drug treatment with the assistance
of AdAction, who you may be aware of, and my officers working
in conjunction with them. I dealt with and we treated and provided
aftercare for a significant number of difficult, damaged prisoners
who had a range of drug problems. I have to say to you that in
the four years that I was Governor of Swaleside, not one of those
prisoners ever managed to get to Blantyre House. My perception
of the profile of the prisoners that were getting to Blantyre
House were the sort who were not the difficult and damaged prisoners
that I was dealing with in my drug treatment programmes but had
other backgrounds which would probably not lead to them being
widespread drug users. The figures are available and you may find
that a more significant number are there for trafficking and importation
rather than use thereof.

    310.    How did so many people get
the impression that the prison was awash with drugs and under
the control of the prisoners?

    (Mr Podmore)  No doubt to discredit
the search and discredit me, I must imagine.

    (Mr Murtagh)  Can I be of help
because I was present when the briefing took place. I can also
confirm that those words were never used in the briefing.

    311.    The search was nonetheless
to look, we have just been told, for guns, arms, explosives, drugs
and anything down the range of contraband.

    (Mr Podmore)  That is correct.

    312.    And we know that you found
no drugs and no arms and explosives and we know the extent to
which you found drugs.

    (Mr Podmore)  Yes.

    313.    The dogs that you referred
to, presumably they were used principally to search for explosives
and for drugs. Would they have been used to search for anything
else?

    (Mr Podmore)  It is possible
to use them in what is known as a sweep across open areas to detect,
shall we say, unusual items. If you had a football field, say,
you could deploy them as a kind of zig-zag sweep and they would
find something out of the ordinary.

    314.    But there is a football field
there. Were they deployed for that purpose?

    (Mr Podmore)  No. The grounds
of Blantyre House, as you will be aware if you have been there,
are quite extensive. The technique of letting dogs loose in that
kind of operation was not something that I wanted to do given
that it was at night. Okay, there was some lighting but it was
relatively limited. If there are dogs loose when numbers of people
are around, that is not good practice. Can I finish? They were
used to search certain areas on what is called a long leash which
would allow them to partially carry out that manoeuvre but they
would still be under the control of a handler and not a danger
to anyone else who might be around the buildings.

    315.    The fact is, is it not, that
because you chose to search at night you could not search the
bottom of the compound and some of the other ground areas at all?

    (Mr Podmore)  That is correct.
I would have to say that in any search you have to draw certain
limitations as to the extent of that search.

    316.    But you had intelligence
here that led you to go in heavy-handed, mob handed.

    (Mr Podmore)  No, I am sorry
----

    317.    Can I at least put the question
to you. You may answer it whichever way you wish.

    (Mr Podmore)  Okay.

    318.    You had intelligence which
justified, so we are told, going in with 86 or whatever it was
officers in order to search for arms, explosives and drugs and
yet by going in at night it was impossible, was it not, to search
the bottom compound, other ground areas and the portakabin used
as a recording studio? You could not search anywhere in those
areas for that contraband, drugs or explosives.

    (Mr Podmore)  First of all, you
have made yet another pejorative reference to the nature of the
search. I have tried as best I can to address that. You are saying
that, no, I did not search every square inch. As ever in these
situations I have to make certain decisions as to how much I can
search and where I can search. I decided not to and I take responsibility
for that.

    319.    So you did not search the
bottom compound, the other ground areas and the portakabin used
as a recording studio?

    (Mr Podmore)  We searched some
ground areas but I am pretty sure we did not search the bottom
of the football field.

    320.    Let me take you back into
the Chaplain's office where you broke the door down, even though
the Chaplain told us he left his key at the gatehouse. Just there
we are told that you did not search either the locked cupboard.

    (Mr Podmore)  I have attempted
to explain that.

    321.    It would have been impossible,
would it not, to have found whether there were mobile phones,
cash, bank cards, passports, forged driving licences, cameras,
building tools, pornography, tattoo equipment, screwdrivers or
car radios in that cupboard or any other cupboard without opening
it?

    (Mr Podmore)  Again, I refer
back to the strategy of the search, which I think I have explained
about three times now, which was that the hand searching, looking
for the whole range of items, was done in the prisoner areas.
The communal areas were only being searched for ammunition, explosives
and for drugs. So, yes, you are absolutely right, that cupboard
could have been awash with mobile phones but I was not looking
for mobile phones or cash cards in those communal areas. It is
about drawing certain limitations and parameters on the search
to make the exercise practical.

    322.    We know you found no explosives,
we know you found very little drugs and we are now aware that
it is thought what was found was so significant that this particular
raid was justified. What we have found is the list that I have
just described to you and yet you made no effort at all to look
for any of those things in the locked cupboard in the very office
that you broke into.

    (Mr Podmore)  As I say, I have
explained the strategy of the search and I think that answers
your question.

    323.    I am trying to understand
whether there is any rationale for the strategy of the search.
You did consider it sufficiently important to look for money in
the Chaplain's office to take the money from his desk. Why was
it not sufficiently important to look for these other items in
the cupboard?

    (Mr Podmore)  As far as I am
aware, the cash was discovered. There was not a specific, deliberate
attempt to be searching for anything other than ammunition, explosives
and drugs. I do not know, I can make some enquiries and write
to you, but it may well be that the dog had indicated, and it
is possible for dogs to indicate for a whole variety of reasons,
for an A&E dog it is possible to indicate the presence of
the chemicals found in ammunition and explosives which are fairly
innocuous things, it may well be there was a minor indication
of some sort in a drawer. If there had been an indication by the
drug dog or the A&E dog to the cupboard then the cupboard
would have been emptied by some means.

    324.    The office in the gym, was
that also searched?

    (Mr Podmore)  As far as I am
aware, yes.

    325.    Was the door also broken
in there?

    (Mr Podmore)  I cannot recall.

    326.    We were told yesterday that
the door was broken in even though, again, the key had been left
at the gatehouse.

    (Mr Podmore)  Yet again, I have
addressed the issue of the keys. If I was aware that the keys
were available and the keys were available then the doors would
not have been broken down.

    327.    What instructions did you
give to those undertaking the search as to whether to look for
keys before breaking down a door?

    (Mr Podmore)  I spoke with Alan
Shipton, who was the guy who wrote the key systems. On one occasion
there was a particular set of keys that initially we could not
find but we were able to obtain them by examining the systems.
He was key to my information and my decision to force doors on
the advice that as someone who was familiar with the place, familiar
with the situation, he was not able to obtain the keys.

    328.    Were medical records checked
in the health area before the doors were kicked in?

    (Mr Podmore)  I have no knowledge
of that information.

    329.    No knowledge as to whether
that door was opened by a key before it was thereafter broken
down?

    (Mr Podmore)  I am not aware
of that. I would be surprised if that was the case.

    330.    Were you aware of the graffiti
left by some of those officers on the blackboard in the gym?

    (Mr Podmore)  I am aware that
it is alleged that the words "We woz 'ere" - excuse
my grammar - were chalked on a blackboard.

    331.    Are you impressed by that?

    (Mr Podmore)  Of course not.

    332.    Is that provocative?

    (Mr Podmore)  It is totally inappropriate
behaviour.

    333.    Is it provocative?

    (Mr Podmore)  It probably is,
yes.

    334.    Do you think knocking down
the doors when keys might have been found is provocative?

    (Mr Podmore)  You are saying
that I knock down doors regardless of ----

    335.    I am just asking whether
you consider it to be provocative to break down doors if keys
are available?

    (Mr Podmore)  As far as I was
concerned the keys were not available.

    

Mr Winnick

    336.    Mr Narey, is it not unfortunate
that we are discussing what happened at an institution of which
you yourself in June 1998, when you were Director of Regimes,
said "If any establishment is delivering the Government's
manifesto commitment on constructive regimes, it is Blantyre House.
Its offending behaviour programme, education and general atmosphere
are all impressive, including the staff and prisoner relationships,
and are likely to make a real difference." Do you remember?

    (Mr Narey)  Very well, Mr Winnick,
yes.

    337.    So when you wrote those comments
you had visited the prison, seen around the establishment, am
I correct?

    (Mr Narey)  Yes. That was at
the time of my first visit to Blantyre House. I have visited probably
half a dozen times since.

    338.    And on the later occasions?

    (Mr Narey)  My view of Blantyre
House, as I made plain to the Committee when we first discussed
this, is that it has a great deal to commend it. I think the word
I used to describe it the last time we spoke was "precious".
There is something very, very special about Blantyre. There are
exceptionally good staff-prisoner relationships. At the same time
as I have written very complimentary things in the visitors' book
I have also expressed some concern to the Governor about certain
matters relating to security. When I went, for example, in June
1999 I said there was much there that I admired but I expressed
frustration at the failure to properly supervise temporary releases
and I am still anxious about those. I expressed considerable anger
at finding in the education block only three prisoners there and
made the observation that I believed prisoners were pleasing themselves
whether they went to education or not. I may say I was delighted
three weeks ago to see the education block for the first time
in my experience teeming with prisoners, including so many in
a literacy class that they were overflowing into the chapel.

    339.    Your predecessor as Director
General of the Prison Service, Sir Richard Tilt, visited and he
said that he was "delighted to see such a constructive atmosphere
in a small establishment. The Governor and the staff", that
is the Governor who has been removed, "are to be congratulated
for what they are doing".

    (Mr Narey)  I can only repeat,
Mr Winnick, that there is much about Blantyre House that I admire
but there are certain things more recently which I do not admire.
I do not find it acceptable, for example, without making any indication
of how it came to happen, that £2,000 from a prison charity
account held by the prison, apparently donated by a broker in
the City, denied by that broker, was paid in cash ----

    

Chairman

    340.    Mr Narey, it is entirely
up to you what you talk about but we were advised that you did
not want this discussed in public.

    (Mr Narey)  I am being very careful,
Chairman. I am not making any comment at all on how it happened
or who was culpable for it. The fact is I was seized with information
before the search that charitable funds were not being properly
managed and subsequently I discovered that £2,000 in cash
was placed in the hands of a serving prisoner serving a very,
very long sentence. I do not think that is acceptable and I think
that damages the prison.

    Chairman:  I must stop you because you
do not know whether that is acceptable or not because that issue
has not been resolved as far as I am aware. You are quite right
to raise the concerns.

    

Mr Winnick

    341.    I get the impression, perhaps
my colleagues are coming to a different conclusion, that every
effort is being made to try to find fault with what happened in
that regime under the previous Governor. Everything is being brought
up which is totally at variance with what was said previously
by you and by Sir Richard Tilt. If we can bring ourselves a little
nearer to March of this year, the Chief Inspector of Prisons -
I do not want to get him into trouble - said "I conclude
by praising the consistent and courageous approach of the Governor
and Staff at Blantyre House for their very difficult and challenging
task on behalf of the public". Presumably Sir David has pretty
good knowledge of what is going on in prisons?

    (Mr Narey)  He has a very good
knowledge, Mr Winnick. He also said in the same report, "We
were concerned that much of the routine of the prison and its
discipline depended on the prisoners behaving and policing themselves."
I think that is an example which David acknowledges of the balance
not being right. When staff inform me that a released prisoner
on temporary release appeared on Stars in their Eyes on
a Saturday evening, apparently drinking in a pub with people,
that does not suggest that I am serving the public very well and
I could be gravely embarrassed by that. All I am trying to do,
and all I did in making the decision to move the Governor and
to effect this search, is to try to ensure that all that is good
about Blantyre is protected, because I know if there was a major
controversy surrounding Blantyre House its future would be in
considerable doubt, as it has been in the past.

    342.    Mr Narey, if you were in
our place and you were taking evidence like we did yesterday,
I wonder how far you would have been surprised to find that no-one,
in fact, was defending the change of regime and no-one was defending
the search on 5/6 May. The prisoners perhaps are biased so you
can say that they do not count. The prison officers were highly
critical and the Board of Visitors. In fact, as I say, no-one
was defending what occurred. Would that not have surprised you
if you had been in our position?

    (Mr Narey)  I would not say for
a moment that the prisoners do not count. I never go to a prison
without spending a great deal of time talking to prisoners, and
I do at Blantyre. I would, however, have been somewhat sceptical
of the criminal background of those you formally interviewed yesterday,
five of the six of whom had convictions for very serious drug
offences. I would certainly have taken that into account in what
they were saying about the availability of heroin. I am well aware
that the staff, the Board and prisoners have been dismayed by
the occurrences of this search.

    343.    Why should prison officers
be so critical?

    (Mr Narey)  Because the prison
officers have seen it as an implicit criticism of their work at
the prison, and to some extent it is. I do not think they have
been carrying out and taking to work a proper security consciousness.
When I met the POA, this was just a few weeks ago, the POA Committee
expressed surprised at my suggestion that visitors to prisons
should be (a) supervised and (b) a number of them should be randomly
searched. They did not seem to think that was necessary. I find
that extraordinary.

    344.    So the prisoners you have
a reason to give us as to why they are critical, because they
are not having such a nice time. The prison officers are critical
because it seems, according to you, they are being criticised
for the way in which they have acted. What is your explanation
for the Board of Visitors? They are naive perhaps?

    (Mr Narey)  No. I take the worries
of the Board of Visitors very seriously and I have gone to considerable
lengths, both before 5 May and since then, to spend time with
them and convince them of my anxieties. I attended a board meeting
in June 1999. The Board Chair and the Vice Chair visited my home
and I have given them a reasonably thorough briefing on the intelligence
behind this. I saw the Board Chairman last Friday. I take their
concerns very seriously. I will offer the view that I do think
certain members of the Board have allowed themselves to get rather
too close to prisoners and have ceased to be as passionate and
objective as they might.

    Mr Winnick:  Do you know that the Chief
Inspector of Prisons, giving evidence this morning, in reply to
a question from my colleague, Mr Malins, described the search
as "ghastly"?

    

Mr Malins

    345.    "A terrible and ghastly
mistake".

    (Mr Narey)  I was pretty surprised
at that because I spoke to Sir David about this just the other
day in the knowledge that John Podmore had managed the search.
I asked David for his view as to whether or not it was conceivable
that John would have allowed wanton destruction to take place
and Sir David was unequivocal in ensuring me that he did not believe
that. I want it put on record that I accept entirely, for example,
the Chaplain's views that his keys were there, but I also consider
it inconceivable that Mr Podmore would have proceeded without
genuinely trying to find them. I find that inconceivable. I trust
John Podmore. I do not think he tried to do anything that was
unnecessary during that search.

    

Mr Winnick

    346.    You should be very, very
concerned indeed at the situation at that prison now, the low
morale, the lack of confidence in the new regime. These are matters
that I would have thought are of the gravest concern to an institution
that has been so widely praised and which undoubtedly has played
a very important role in trying to reform criminals.

    (Mr Narey)  I am extremely concerned
about it, Mr Winnick. I did not join the Prison Service 18 years
ago with any other intent, perhaps somewhat idealistic at the
time, than to help criminals reform themselves. I am entirely
committed to it. I might say as Director General I have made some
pretty impressive moves during that time. I have made huge inroads
into literacy and numeracy never done before in the service, 32,000
qualifications last year, drug abuse has plummeted right around
the prison estate. I have doubled the number of offending behaviour
programmes, now proven to reduce offending. I pay acknowledgment
to Eoin McLennan-Murray who played a pioneering role in the development
of those programmes some years ago. I am entirely committed to
the things that it is clear the Committee are concerned about
as well.

    347.    I do not question that, Mr
Narey.

    (Mr Narey)  If I may finish.
I am desperately realistic about the way that security problems
can blow the service off course. In 1990 following the Woolf Report
this service saw a considerable emphasis on resettlement and rehabilitation.
In 1995, when the service had lost its grip on security and we
had five Category A escapes and about 250 other escapes, we had
security, security, security as the mantra and everything stopped.
I have been a very fortunate Director General, I have received
an unheralded investment from this Government in constructive
regimes to the tune of about half a billion pounds. There is not
a choice between resettlement and security, you can have both.
I am very proud of the fact that in simultaneously making the
sorts of improvements right around the estate that I have, in
the first half of this year we have had eight escapes compared
with in 1993, for example, in the same period 116. That is how
you retain public and parliamentary confidence.

    

Mr Cawsey

    348.    You have just spoken about
your commitment to education and how you have seen it improve
in Blantyre House since the new Governor has been in post and
since 5 May.

    (Mr Narey)  I did not say since
the new Governor, I said since my last visit. I acknowledge entirely
that some of the improvements in education have been delivered
by the previous Governor.

    349.    Let me just read to you a
very small extract, the final paragraph in fact, from the recent
submission to us by Blantyre House Education Manager and Curriculum
Leader, a joint submission: "There is less of a Governor
presence in the prison; previously, Governors visited the Education
Department daily, speaking to tutors and students alike. This
no longer happens. Staff feel less supported and their work devalued.
Students feel isolated, mistrusted and disheartened and feel their
achievements are not actively recognised. The strong leadership
coming from the Governors is no longer visible. It is becoming
increasingly difficult to perpetuate the previous climate of trust,
loyalty and working together to maintain all that Blantyre House
stands for." That comes from people who are delivering your
education service in your establishment, so how does that lead
to the standards you wish?

    (Mr Narey)  It comes from an
Education Manager brand new to ----

    350.    Not just the Education Manager.

    (Mr Narey)  The Education Manager
is brand new to the Prison Service, whose experience of prisons
and prisoners goes all the way back to last November.

    351.    She has done six months of
the old regime and six months of the new regime.

    (Mr Narey)   I acknowledge the
improvements made by the previous Governor but I can tell you
for the first time a few weeks ago, during this apparent regime
where the Governor does not visit, I saw more evidence of genuine
learning in the education centre than I had seen before. Blantyre
was not alone. I inherited a situation where education was altogether
too recreational. We have turned that about and Blantyre, like
other places now, has many prisoners who are doing things which
will make them employable.

    352.    Are these two more liars
to add to our list?

    (Mr Narey)  They are not liars
at all, it is an opinion and I do not share that opinion. The
evidence that I have seen from the Education Department very recently
is that it has been much improved although nowhere near as much
as it should. I do not accept that I am getting value for money
from ministers with an average class size of six, which is what
I have at Blantyre even now, considerably more than it was.

    353.    Why did you close the photography
class down?

    (Mr Narey)  For the reasons I
mentioned, because I do not think cameras should be in prisons.
As a matter of fact, I do not think photography should be ----

    

Mr Howarth

    354.    You have a competition amongst
prisons, the best photographic work by a prisoner.

    (Mr Narey)  Prisoners do not
have cameras in their cells.

    

Mr Cawsey

    355.    That is a different issue.

    (Mr Narey)  It is not a different
issue, Mr Cawsey.

    356.    Of course it is.

    (Mr Narey)  The cameras were
all in prisoners' cells and they should not have been there.

    357.    You can deal with that issue
without closing the photography class down.

    (Mr Narey)  I do not think that
against a statistic where two-thirds of my population of 66,000
men have levels of literacy so low and levels of numeracy so low
that they are ineligible for 96 per cent of jobs. That is not
my statistic, it is the Basic Skills Agency's statistic. My belief
is the priority is literacy and numeracy and not recreational
courses.

    Chairman:  The time is getting on and
I am very conscious, Mr Boateng, that you have been very patient.

    

Mr Cawsey

    358.    We have never known you so
quiet.

    (Mr Boateng)  It has taken some
self control.

    Mr Winnick:  He wishes he was not here.

    

Mrs Dean

    359.    We visited the joinery shop
while we were there with good examples of creativity but also
work that could actually lead on, as photography can, to work
when they are in the outside world. We heard there are less students
in the joinery shop than there were before 5 May. We are deeply
concerned about the photography, especially since other prisons
are doing it. Surely it must be possible to ensure that cameras
are not in people's cells and that course continues. We appreciate
all that you are doing in literacy and numeracy, that is great,
but are you saying that all other things go out of the window?

    (Mr Narey)  No, not at all, Mrs
Dean. What I am saying is that the priority has been on literacy
and numeracy. As a matter of fact, I spend about 40 per cent of
our total education budget on literacy and numeracy and we have
a full range of other courses, Open University courses and so
forth. I am not saying that there is not in any circumstances
room for photography and I am not saying I would prevent the Governor
from reintroducing some element of photography there, so long
as it did not result in prisoners having possession of cameras
in their cells, that is the issue. I do not think it is a high
priority. I am fascinated to hear evidence of a prisoner who has
left for a photographic career, that is the first I have heard
of it but I will certainly check up on it.

    

Chairman

    360.    Thank you. Mr Boateng, as
I say you have been very patient. Could we just back to when Mr
Narey came to you and said "I have got this intelligence
which in my view justifies this kind of search at Blantyre House",
whenever that was? Do you have the power to advise him that it
is not a very sensible thing to do or it is a bit over the top
or "take your time, do it during the daylight"? Where
is the line between your responsibilities and the Prison Service?

    (Mr Boateng)  Chairman, my responsibility
is for policy, the Director General's responsibility is for the
day-to-day administration of the service and for operations and
it is a very onerous responsibility which he discharges with enormous
distinction. My primary concern has to be, first and foremost,
the protection of the public and the prevention of crime. That
is the bottom line for me as Prisons Minister. I believe the public
are best protected and crime prevented by ensuring that we hold
prisoners in safe and decent conditions and that we address effectively
the causes of their offending. That is why resettlement is enormously
important to me and this Government and, I know, to the Committee.
Indeed, it was partly as a result of my understanding of what
Blantyre House was achieving, my knowledge of the Committee's
view of Blantyre House and its achievements, that caused me to
express the view that any change in the status of Blantyre House
as anything other than a resettlement prison would be undesirable.
That is a view that I share with the Director General. That is
a view that I believe reflects my responsibility for broad overall
policy and resources. The management, however, of resettlement
prisons is a matter that I believe falls squarely within the operational
responsibility of the Director General. I would not expect him,
nor did he, to seek authorisation for a lock down and search of
this nature. He has not in other cases where there has been a
lock down and search and I would not have expected him to have
done in this. However, he is aware of my interest in Blantyre
House and resettlement. He was obviously aware of the sensitivities
around Blantyre House and on 4 May my private office and myself
were informed that it was his intention that there should be a
lock down and search of the premises and we were informed that
there was intelligence, the nature of which we will be disclosing
to you in more detail in the private session, that would warrant
such an action. That, so far as I was concerned, was the end of
the matter because if the Director General, in whom I have trust,
comes to me and says "well, there is an issue, criminal intelligence
backing it up, around Blantyre House. I believe I have got to
have a lock down and search", then I am glad he has informed
me of that but it is an operational matter for him and I would
not dream of interfering.

    361.    Did he tell you at the same
time of the planned career move for Mr McLennan-Murray?

    (Mr Boateng)  I would not know
and I would not ----

    362.    Did he tell you about the
change of Governor?

    (Mr Boateng)  I would not expect
for him to seek approval from me of changes in terms of the structure
of staffing. He may have felt it necessary to do so and if he
would seek to inform me through my private secretary or directly
of the fact that at the same time he intended to do x, y and z,
that would be a matter for him, but it would not be for me to
say "should we not be using him over there" or "should
we not be appointing x, y and z", that really is not a matter
for me.

    

Mr Howarth

    363.    Chairman, rather than go
back over some of the nitty gritty that we have discussed before,
I think this really comes to the nub of the issue. I do not think
anybody on this Committee would expect you to have complete details
of every single governor and where they are moving, that is a
matter for the Director General, but given your recognition of
the sensitivity of Blantyre House and the uniqueness of the regime
that was being operated there, you must have been aware that this
kind of search that was planned could have very serious repercussions
on the way in which Blantyre House was going to continue to operate?

    (Mr Boateng)  Mr Howarth, my
first concern has to be the protection of the public and the prevention
of crime. As an integral part of resettlement, and you will appreciate
this I know, there is a need to get the balance right between
security and a sufficient degree of freedom to enable that resettlement
to be effectively brought about. It does require a degree of trust
undoubtedly, and that trust is important. I have listened to the
proceedings so far and I have visited Blantyre House on two occasions
now since the action that the Committee is investigating and there
is no doubt that trust has been shattered. There is no doubt that
it is going to be a long, hard job to restore it. I want it to
be restored and the Director General wants it to be restored,
but it has to be restored on the basis that we have got the balance
right between the requirements of security and the requirements
for -----

    364.    Yes.

    (Mr Boateng)  If I can just continue
because I have been very quiet.

    365.    Yes, you have, I will acknowledge
that.

    (Mr Boateng)  And unusually so,
as you well know, Mr Howarth. That does mean that we do have to
get the balance right between security on the one hand and effective
resettlement on the other. If we do not and there was an incident
involving serious crime or a threat or a danger to the public
as a result of something that was going on at Blantyre House,
it would discredit not only Blantyre House but resettlement generally
and the work that we are seeking actively to promote, not only
in the three institutions where it is currently taking place but
across the whole piece, and I cannot afford for that to happen
and neither, I believe, would this Committee wish it to happen.
I back the Director General 100 per cent in ensuring that we do
now what is necessary to get the balance right, to restore trust,
so we can get on with the business of actually evaluating and
spreading what works in Blantyre House because I believe it to
be of value in the important job we are doing, which is turning
lives which in the case of the inmates of Blantyre House have
been lives of deep criminality. Let us be very clear, we are dealing
in Blantyre House with people who have criminal records of a grave
and serious nature. If we can turn their lives around, as I believe
it is possible to do because I do believe it is possible to change
lives, then we will do the public a great service. We do have
to make sure that we actually do it well and do the right thing
and do it in a way that can command public confidence.

    366.    Minister, I do not think
there was one word of that with which any of us would disagree
with. We understand this question of getting the balance right
but on the evidence we have seen it has been suggested to us,
and I think we are minded to accept, that the regime that did
operate was a better balance than that which has been introduced.
We have to accept, and you know me, I do not have a reputation
for being a softy, that these are people, however grave the crimes
they have committed, however despicable those crimes, who are
going to be released into society. The issue is surely this, is
it not, that Blantyre House gives the Prison Service an opportunity
with a very different regime to prepare men for release into society,
the result of which is that society will be less at risk from
those men than they would have been had that resettlement facility
at Blantyre House not been made available to them. The evidence
is there in the recidivism rates: eight per cent for Blantyre
House, roughly 50 per cent for the general body of the prison
population. I think what has really upset us is whereas morale
was high and enthusiasm was great, that morale has been profoundly
damaged. You have said you are committed to the concept of Blantyre
House but I do not think you are committed to the concept that
previously ran. Can I just draw to your attention what Sir David
said in his report: "It is an intrinsic part of the regime
being offered that risks must be taken with those prisoners being
released on temporary licence to do work in the community... Far
better for society that such risks are taken within the more controlled
environment of a prison sentence than after a prisoner has been
released." Surely that is the point, that what haunts all
of us - you, Mr Narey, Mr Murtagh, Mr Podmore, us - is some headline
like "Multiple murderer having a whale of time out of Blantyre
House" when he should have been inside breaking up stones
or something. It is that fear of those tabloid headlines, is it
not, which is driving us to a more controlled regime which is
reducing the trust between staff and prisoners and therefore making
them more likely to be ill-prepared for the outside world than
they would otherwise have been?

    (Mr Boateng)  My concern is not
headlines, tabloid or broadsheet. I do not make the distinction
that you do in that respect. My concern has to be, and I have
to repeat myself because I cannot stress this sufficiently, how
do I best protect the public? How do I ensure that prisoners are
held securely, safely and decently and that they address the causes
of their offending in a way that commands public credibility?
That has to be my primary concern. I must not allow headlines,
tabloid or broadsheet, to deflect me from that. I hope you will
feel, as a Committee, that I have not in terms of the issue of
public protection allowed headlines, tabloid or broadsheet, to
deflect me from my primary task. My concern has to be in relation
to Blantyre House or in relation to any other prison getting that
balance right. I accept that they were aspects of the previous
Governor's stewardship of Blantyre House which were wholly commendable,
wholly commendable. I am also bound, Mr Howarth, to take the professional
advice of those who work for the Prison Service on other aspects
of the regime at Blantyre House that did give cause for concern.
When you have heard, as you shortly will, the evidence given in
closed session, you will understand the grave nature of that concern
which I could not, and I do not believe this Committee will possibly
be able to, ignore. That does not mean that we do not want, and
are not determined to achieve once again, in Blantyre House something
that can be held up as an example of the best that the Prison
Service can do. I believe we can achieve that without prejudicing
security but I am not prepared to prejudice security because my
first duty has to be to protect the public.

    367.    But you are prepared to prejudice
security in so far as you let these people out of jail.

    (Mr Boateng)  I do not let them
out of jail. The law takes its course and in due course they are
released. What I have to do is to ----

    368.    I mean while they are at
Blantyre House on work placements. So far as there is a facility
for work placements you are taking the risk.

    (Mr Boateng)  That is precisely
why, Mr Howarth, we do have to have a concern, for instance, as
to where they go and work. If somebody goes and works some distance
away in circumstances which do give cause for concern as to the
bona fides of the employment, if somebody goes to work in circumstances
where there is reason to believe that contact of a criminal nature
has been made, then I would expect my Director General and my
Area Manager to be concerned about that. They were, and as a result
of their concerns they took certain actions.

    

Mr Stinchcombe

    369.    Would you expect them to
tell the Governor?

    (Mr Boateng)  I would expect
them to take such steps as they felt necessary in order to protect
the public and to prevent crime. That would normally include informing
the Governor of their concerns. There might well be exceptional
circumstances when it was not possible to do that for one reason
or another. Yes, that would normally include informing the Governor.

    

Mr Howarth

    370.    Minister, we are looking
forward to the compelling evidence which we are disappointed has
to be heard in private.

    (Mr Boateng)  When you hear the
nature of it, Mr Howarth, knowing your concerns, as I do, you
will well understand.

    371.    Fair enough, we will accept
that, but please understand where we are coming from. We are coming
from a position where we do not have, I think it is fair to say,
the same confidence in the Prison Service that you as the Minister
do. We have noted Sir David Ramsbotham's remarks today that he
has a very high regard for Mr Narey but, having said that, when
you came here, both of you, on 16 May, which was ten days after
the search, we were told that there was this frightening amount
of contraband, money and all the rest of it and in answer to my
concerns about damage done, Mr Narey said: "The total amount
of damage, I might say, is in the region of £400; and that
meant we could be absolutely sure that every area of that prison
had been searched." (a) it was not £400, it was £6,000,
although £2,500 actual cost to the Prison Service.

    (Mr Narey)  And I did correct
that afterwards. I did correct that and wrote to the Committee
immediately afterwards.

    372.    We know that every area was
not searched. We know that the total cost was actually £26,700
because that is Mr Murtagh's calculation of the time of the staff,
etc. We were told that you did not have access to the keys but
we were told that Mr Shipton actually had the keys to the health
centre and as the men were beating down the door he came in jangling
the keys and said "here they are" and they apparently
laughed and said "it is too late". This is why we find
we have some difficulty, Minister.

    (Mr Boateng)  Mr Howarth, I well
understand and I do not want you to believe for one moment that
the concerns you have about the conduct of the action are not
concerns that I take seriously. I do take them very seriously.
I do take very seriously the nature of the damage and the mystery
that still does surround the issue of the keys. I take that very
seriously and I will want to ensure that the findings of your
Committee in that respect inform the future conduct of such actions.
I am not, however, so naive and so unused as a criminal lawyer
of many years' standing, a real hack in terms of the criminal
courts ----

    

Mr Winnick

    373.    Never a hack.

    (Mr Boateng)  --- who, like Mr
Malins, has heard many, many accounts of searches in similar circumstances,
although not in my case of prisons but certainly other premises,
to believe that in the course of those searches there is not sometimes
done unwarranted damage and, indeed, remarks and graffiti of the
sort you have heard described and, quite rightly, deprecated by
the silver commander. I am not so naive as to believe those things
do not happen and where they do they are reprehensible and we
need to make it absolutely clear to all concerned in such actions
that it simply will not be tolerated. I do take that very seriously
indeed.

    

Mr Malins

    374.    Minister, very briefly, like
you I have been around a long time in the criminal justice system.
This has been a very tough two or three years. Let me say, and
I am sure I speak for all of us, I happen to regard you - I hope
this does not sound odd - and Mr Narey as men of great ability,
men of great integrity, great knowledge, sensitivity and enlightenment.
That is me saying to you that I admire you both.

    (Mr Narey)  Thank you very much,
sir.

    375.    There has got to be a reason
why people like Sir David Ramsbotham and me and others on this
Committee feel very unhappy. There has got to be a reason for
Sir David saying that the nature of the raid was a terrible, ghastly
mistake.

    (Mr Boateng)  He did also make
that remark with the caveat that there may well be information
of which he was not aware. There is information of which he is
not aware and he is not aware of that information for very good
reason.

    376.    You have got to understand
that good, reasonable, sensible people, as you are, share a real
concern about this. I am looking for some acknowledge at some
stage today that if you went through it all again you might do
it differently, that is all.

    (Mr Boateng)  First of all, if
I can ask the Director General to deal with his part of it and
then I will deal with mine.

    (Mr Narey)  Mr Malins, if I have
given the impression this afternoon that I do not regret any part
of this then that is quite untrue. There is a lot of learning
in this for me. Although no member of the Board of Visitors was
sent home, and no Governor has power to do that, you can be quite
sure that if anything like this was happening again I would ensure
that whoever was in charge would make it absolutely clear to the
Board of Visitors how important it was for them to stay. I think
much of the controversy over the conduct of this search would
have been much clearer to us if they had stayed and been witness
to it. I regret very much that they went and were not called back.
I think they might have been called back. I also understand that
difficult decisions were being made late in the night by people
and I do, as I stress, trust Mr Podmore. There are a number of
other learning points in this about the way we gather police intelligence.
This is not just a matter of the extent to which it is shared
with the Governor, and I will assist you about that later on,
it is also a matter about we collate police intelligence from
different police forces and, indeed, from other agencies. I have
spoken to David Phillips from Kent Constabulary just this lunchtime
and he and I, along with a police commander from the Metropolitan
Police who is my police adviser, are going to be meeting shortly
after this to try to get a better grip on this. To some extent
what was happening at Blantyre, as I will explain later, was complicated
by the fact that different agencies had an interest in it simultaneously
and there was not anybody holding the reins and seeing all that
was going on at once. I will make sure that not just at Blantyre
House but every other place we will do a much better job of that.

    (Mr Boateng)  I think my concern
is very much along the lines of that of the Director General,
save that I would add that I believe it was unfortunate that as
to the extent of the matters, which will be disclosed to you in
the private session, because these matters are of a very highly
sensitive nature, that we were not in a position to have made
them known to you earlier. Had that been done I think some of
your concerns would have been allayed. Nevertheless, I think there
is also a job of work to be done around ensuring that the Board
of Visitors not only had the opportunity to be present throughout
the whole incident, and I think it is very, very unfortunate that
they were not and I am still not clear in my mind why they were
not, and I do not lay the blame at their door for one moment.
I think also that we do need to look very carefully at the issue
of communication in this, communication between ourselves and
the Prison Service and BOVs, communication between management
and staff, and to recognise that perhaps when we look back at
this incident communication has not been as good as it might have
been. I think there are lessons to be learned from that.

    

Mr Winnick

    377.    I think the Minister and
Mr Narey in the last few moments in reply to the question put
by my colleague have made some progress. We have not had "it
has all been right and necessary and that is the situation",
I think we have moved the situation forward. My question to you,
Minister, is will there now be an input from you and the Director
of the Prison Service into the future of Blantyre House?

    (Mr Boateng)  The answer to that
is unequivocally yes. I took the opportunity when I last appeared
before the Committee to make it absolutely clear then that the
future of Blantyre House was as a resettlement prison. I certainly
believe that it is right in terms of policy for us to make sure
that learn what works and what has worked in Blantyre House, that
we restore it, and across the Prison Service we look at ways of
ensuring that we spread the good practice and get that balance
right in terms of security on the one hand and the proper element
of trust on the other because there are lessons to be learned
there too. I am quite sure we can get it right. I also think we
need to look at the basis, and it touches on something Mr Podmore
raised earlier on, upon which prisoners get into places like Blantyre
House because I think the regime there is one which other prisoners
could benefit from. I know the Director General has had concerns
about the selection criteria because I think the public are well
served if more prisoners, and appropriate prisoners, gain the
benefit of what resettlement can offer.

    378.    There is a tremendous amount
of mending to be done. I hope that both of you will be doing your
best to start that mending as quickly as possible.

    (Mr Boateng)  Mending and healing.

    

Mr Linton

    379.    I do not think I want to
disagree with you that public safety must be the first concern
if you are going to put concerns into order of priority. It must
be public safety not only during the sentence of prisoners but
after their release as well. The fact that Blantyre House has
achieved such a low reoffending rate is in itself an enormously
important reassurance to the public certainly in the area. I have
never known an institution of that kind being so well regarded
and welcomed in an area. I know the emphasis of penal policy under
this Government has been what works but surely Blantyre works,
that is the truth. I think everybody in this room hopes that it
will continue to work. I think we are 99 per cent in the world
of unintended consequences here. There is a very real danger that
the unintended consequences taken in the name of security will,
if not destroy, at least inhibit that very fragile plant of a
public institution that really serves its purpose and has the
confidence of the public. I very much hope that the actions that
the Director General and you, Minister, will take will enable
that plant to thrive again.

    (Mr Boateng)  I have been struck
by the level of community support and I think we have to build
on that. We also have to ask ourselves some questions as to how
it is that it has been possible to grow that level of support
in that community and we have not always been able to do so with
such a great degree of success elsewhere.

    

Mr Cawsey

    380.    I want to ask the Minister
to play the evangelical role that he does so well in terms of
how people feel at Blantyre House. I thought it was tremendously
encouraging actually in some of the recent answers that Mr Narey
spoke about morale being low and he acknowledged that. People
will welcome that because it is the first stepping stone, is it
not, to acknowledge. You spoke about your own visits where you
said that trust was shattered and I think we were very struck
by that yesterday. Before we went and visited the prison yesterday
and met the prison staff, we started off with a session with the
Governor and then Mr Murtagh and I asked, as I asked doggedly
of everybody we spoke to, "how do you feel about staff morale
and the way people feel about it?" The answer we got at that
level, and these people were day-to-day management, was that we
may find a small percentage who are resistant to change. You know
from your own comments, and I know, that is not in the real world
what is happening at Blantyre House. I am really looking for some
reassurance that you will ensure that message gets out and will
be acted on accordingly.

    (Mr Boateng)  On all occasions
I visit prisons, and on both occasions at some length at Blantyre
House, I have met with all levels of staff, not just POA, and
with the BOV. I am under no illusions as to the journey we have
got to travel. I have a very clear idea of what it is that we
have to do. We are determined to do it and to learn the lessons
and your inquiry will help us in that.

    

Chairman

    381.    Thank you, Mr Boating. Mr
Narey, I have got one final question before we move into the private
session. There is a reference in the executive summary to the
report on the investigation mounted at Blantyre House to a further
investigation requested by the Deputy Director General which is
the subject of a separate report. Can you tell us what that report
is about?

    (Mr Narey)  I believe you have
a copy of that, Chairman. That was the report by someone entirely
unconnected with Blantyre House or Kent prisons into the conduct
of the search.

    382.    A final question to you,
Minister, if I may. We put the point to Sir David Ramsbotham this
morning. In the aftermath of the search of the prison, did you
consider asking Sir David, as he has powers to request it, to
carry out an independent investigation into the events of 5/6
may? The situation where we now are, and I think this is the fact
of the matter, is that it is the Prison Service investigating
itself.

    (Mr Boateng)  No, it did not
occur to me.

    383.    It has been done in the past.

    (Mr Boateng)  It did not occur
to me to do that because I am aware of a number of tasks that
we are working on with Sir David. It did not occur to me to ask
him to carry out an investigation. I am also aware of the work
that is being done generally on resettlement by Sir David and
his team, ably assisted by Mr Podmore, who has had a long standing
record of commitment to resettlement. I am looking forward very
much to the product of that work. No, it did not occur to me to
ask Sir David to carry out ----

    

Mr Winnick

    384.    Will you consider it?

    (Mr Boateng)  I do not believe
it would serve any useful purpose now because of your own investigation
and that has been carried out. We will certainly be looking to
the Inspectorate, the thematic on resettlement having been completed,
to return to Blantyre House in due course in order to assess progress.

    Chairman:  Thank you, Minister. We are
now going to move into private session and I am going to ask you
to leave, please. Thank you very much for your attendance and
for your patience.