Examination of Witnesses (Questions 740
- 759)
THURSDAY 20 JANUARY 2000
MR M MACLENNAN,
MR C MACLEOD,
MR N MUSTOE
AND MR
P BAINSFAIR
Dr Brand
740 It is not a statutory body, it is a trade
funded organisation.
(Mr Bainsfair) That is right.
Audrey Wise
741 The question is how you engage aspirations
in the first place and stay within the CAP because I thought that
adverts had not to be aspirational. How do you distinguish between
the aspirations of the bottom end of your adult smokers and the
young teenager? There must be something you do, some sorts of
things you do or refrain from doing in order to keep within the
CAP. I am just asking you to explain.
(Mr Bainsfair) We are in a loop here
because I keep giving you the same answer.
742 I know.
(Mr Bainsfair) We use our own judgement
and we then go through the procedure of checking it against the
code.
743 What guides your judgement? Can you give
any examples of things you would not put in in case they attracted
the 14 to 15-year-olds, what you think is different at 18? I am
keeping you at 18 because 18 to 24 includes 18s. I do not understand.
You have rock, cult, bikes, cars as sorts of things. Fourteen
and 15-year-old males seem to me to be just as interested as 18-year-olds.
How do your adverts differ?
(Mr Bainsfair) Perhaps if I say that
it is common sense that there is going to be an overlap. Some
15-year-olds are going to be more sophisticated than others. It
is impossible to say that something which appeals to an 18-year-old
will not appeal to a 15-year-old. If that is what you are getting
at, obviously you are right.
744 Yes.
(Mr Bainsfair) However, it is important
to take into context the motivations behind what makes a 15-year-old
tick and what makes an 18-year-old or a 24-year-old tick when
it comes to whether they are going to smoke a particular brand
of cigarette, because—you will remember being 15 yourself—there
are lots of pressures on you, mostly to do with what your friends
are doing, which are going to come a long way in front of anything
you might see on an advertising hoarding. I am pretty confident,
in answer to your question, that what we do does not influence
very young people. If it does, I have seen no evidence to suggest
that it does. It would be by a very small degree.
745 But you cannot tell us the sort of things
which would enable you to distinguish. In the documents from M&C
Saatchi is one which makes it clear. It is headed "15-34
Age Group". It says, "The 15 to 24 age group who smoke
Silk Cut are slightly more Inner Directed than other smokers".
So clearly there is market research amongst 15-year-olds.
(Mr MacLennan) Yes, there is market research
amongst that age group 15 to 24.
Chairman
746 Why:
(Mr MacLennan) Because it is conducted
by a body called TGI. They carry out a national survey covering
everything.
747 Into tobacco consumption?
(Mr MacLennan) No, no, nothing to do
with the tobacco industry at all whatsoever.
748 Does the survey they undertake include information
gathered—
(Mr MacLennan) They ask about lifestyle
in essence, what papers they read, what they drink, what they
wear, how they vote and so on and so forth. That is the main source
for our industry, if there is a group of people which you want
to target to find out what they do, what they think, how they
behave. That is what you look at. There is no way of using that
data without including 15-year-olds. That is just data. We could
have changed 15 to 16 on documents; obviously we did not.
Chairman: You just ignored it.
Audrey Wise
749 I happen to have done market research, foot
slogging. It is perfectly possible to say to your interviewer,
if the person is 15 do not ask questions 18, 19 and 20.
(Mr MacLennan) You would have to ask
TGI about that, it is nothing to do with the tobacco industry
at all. It is a completely separate body.
750 "In order to maintain market share and
ensure a future for the brand Silk Cut must capture these peoples
values", that is the 15-24 age group. So it starts at the
illegal bit with 15. "Escapism Risk Complexity" is what
you are after. That gives extra point to the questions I was asking
about how you distinguish between attracting 18-year-olds and
not attracting 14 and 15-year-olds. You are actually trying to
attract them, are you not?
(Mr MacLennan) No. We do not commission
TGI to do their research. It is nothing to do with the tobacco
business. We do not brief them, they choose to ask the questions.
It is a general survey which covers all products and it has nothing
to do with the tobacco industry. I thought I had made that quite
clear. On the specific point, you are quoting slightly out of
context because on the brief we write when we choose to communicate,
because these are all interesting words but what I would have
thought was of more importance to yourself is what actually happens
at the end of the day. If you look at our brief in that particular
instance, I think you will find it talks about 18-24. That is
nothing to do with the brief. That is a research report you are
looking at. It is nothing to do with what we ask people to do.
751 It is not research by the body you were talking
about.
(Mr MacLennan) It is a different research
group; quite right.
752 Synergy. May I ask something related about
targets? This is again M&C Saatchi and Gallaher. It is "Woman's
Cigarette". It says, "Gallaher, through Silk Cut and
Berkeley, has a strong female franchise". Then it says, "Opportunity
possibly exists for overtly female targeted cigarette, (perhaps
tapping into female cigar smoking trend?). Difficult to market,
but a niche not yet filled". Do you still think that that
kind of approach is not about getting more women to smoke?
(Mr MacLennan) I do not really have a
view on that; it is someone else's view. It is a research company
and it is their view that you could market a female cigar. I am
not sure you ever could as it happens, but it is nothing to do
with our company.
753 It says M&C Saatchi on the bottom of
the sheet.
(Mr MacLennan) I thought it said Synergy.
754 Not this one; not what I am reading from
now. It is headed "Woman's Cigarette". It is the twin
to the "Male, Laddish, Blokey" page you were challenged
on before. Why would you want to encourage women to smoke cigars
for a manufacturer who already has a strong female franchise?
They have got the women already. Do they want them to change from
Silk Cut to this cigar or do they want extra ones?
(Mr MacLennan) I do not think this was
a recommendation. The first point is that it is factual, is it
not? As it happens low tar cigarettes appeal to women more than
men. I am sure you have that data, so that is true. Silk Cut is
a Gallaher brand, so therefore they have a strong female franchise.
I have no idea whether a cigar aimed at women would work or not
in terms of females finding it attractive.
755 I am not asking whether it would work.
(Mr MacLennan) I do not know. It will
never happen.
756 I am asking whether it would be desirable.
(Mr MacLennan) It would not be undesirable,
no.
757 You do not think it would be undesirable.
(Mr MacLennan) Personally?
758 Yes.
(Mr MacLennan) If women smoked cigars?
If a woman wanted to smoke a cigar she is welcome to smoke a cigar.
759 You are not worried about the fact that quite
a lot of young women smoke, even though it helps to produce low
birth weight babies, etcetera. It does not bother you.
(Mr MacLennan) I think you have switched
the question there somewhat. I did not say that. You were asking
whether I thought it would be a problem if women smoked cigars
and I said no. Do I think young girls smoking is a problem? Yes,
I do think that is a bad thing; certainly.
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