Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1000
- 1019)
THURSDAY 27 JANUARY 2000
MR MARTIN
BROUGHTON, MR
PETER WILSON,
MR GARETH
DAVIS, MR
DAVID DAVIES
AND DR
AXEL GIETZ
1000. Can I come back to Mr Wilson's comment
because you seemed to imply that the advertising takes place within
a controlled and regulated arena. If we look at some of the comments
we had from your advertising agency—not yours individually
but collectively various advertising agencies that came before
us—Benson & Hedges is referred to in an advertisement
as "classy and aspirational"; one on Marlboro: "the
success of Marlboro Lights derives from its being the `aspirational
lifestyle brand'". How does this square with the Committee
on Advertising Practice Code of Guidance which refers to the fact
that smoking advertisements should not be linked with people who
are wealthy, fashionable, sophisticated or successful? I have
to say that being a member of this Committee changes one's reading
habits. If you could look at a copy of Marie Claire—it
is not a magazine I normally read—it is quite clear that
it is very difficult to tell the difference, just looking at some
of the advertisements, between those which are selling cigarettes
and those which are selling beauty products, and the style does
associate the product clearly with people who are attractive,
sophisticated, wealthy and classy and so on, which would be a
complete breach—that is an American magazine but similar
advertisements appearing in British publications—
(Mr Wilson) I do not think that is right, similar
advertisements appear in British publications. I am amazed when
I travel to America, not today, but before advertising was stopped
in America, at some of the things that the American practice permitted
which are just not permitted here. I saw you had a picture of
an attractive smiling girl holding a cigarette in that magazine
you were just looking, which was an American magazine. That certainly
would not be permitted in this country.
1001. What about the presentation of Marlboro
and its aspirational lifestyle?
(Mr Wilson) That is not one of my brands. I am not
able to comment on Marlboro.
(Mr Davies) Again, as Mr Wilson pointed out, the differences
between the UK and other countries such as America are vast. As
a result of the voluntary agreement entered into between the government
and industry in relation to the advertising of tobacco products,
the Marlboro cowboy has not been seen in the United Kingdom since
the early seventies.
1002. We also understood that one of the advertising
agencies was toying with the idea of using Oasis to promote the
product. Would you think that would be within the Code of Practice?
(Mr Wilson) No. I think what you may be referring
to is an incident where that particular band did produce some
records which resembled our packs without seeking our consent.
We complained to them and I can assure you, and we have subsequently
made it clear to them, that had they sought our consent we would
not have given it.
(Mr Broughton) Can I just add one point? It is my
understanding that all adverts have to be pre-cleared with the
Advertising Standards Agency.
(Mr Wilson) Right.
(Mr Broughton) We cannot use it until it has been
cleared.
1003. We have some comments about the Advertising
Standards Agency and the effectiveness of that organisation as
well. Could I come on to the question of the way in which the
advertising agencies, operating on your behalf, operate because
we have encountered market research conducted on behalf of your
companies by agencies involving 15 year olds. What steps would
you take to ensure that advertising aimed at, say, the 18 to 24
year olds does not hit those aged under 16?
(Mr Wilson) In two ways. First, the content of the
advertisement, which is very strictly controlled and has to be
pre-vetted—every cigarette advertisement that appears has
to be pre-vetted to ensure that there is not a particular appeal
to young people. We operate, as you have identified, on the basis
that they certainly should not appeal to under 18 year olds. The
legal age to which people can be sold cigarettes is 16, and we
deliberately have that two-year buffer. I know it is not perfect
but it gives us some buffer. Perhaps even more importantly it
is where we place the advertisements. We do not place advertisements
we have voluntarily agreed, which is one of the effective things
that has come out of the voluntary agreement process, we don't
place posters near schools, we do not advertise in magazines aimed
at the young, particularly young females. I cannot remember the
precise mechanism for determining that but this is reviewed and
covered by the committee that monitors our advertising. For those
publications that fall on the borderline, each publication has
to be scrutinised by this committee to determine whether it should
be allowed to carry cigarette advertisements or not.
Chairman
1004. Mr Davis, would you say your company also
has that kind of attitude in relation to all this?
(Mr Davis) I think it is fair to say, Chairman, that
uniquely, with the pre-clearance of ads, that precludes a lot
of the dangers that have been outlined by the members of the Committee.
Additionally, the voluntary code is now very prescriptive on what
can be done, the lack of glamorisation, portraying healthy lifestyles,
all the great restrictions are complied with very carefully and
that is very much exemplified by the successive COMATIS reports.
In a real life situation, if we see anything in any artwork or
projected ad that we might be running which we considered in any
way would be appealing to children we would not touch it.
1005. Is Lambert & Butler yours?
(Mr Davis) Yes.
1006. I have had a recent experience in that
I have a daughter who is nearly 12 and she remarked on an advertisement
in Wakefield which we passed in the car, asking me to explain
the nuances of this particular advertisement. As I say, she is
not yet 12 but she was attracted to the dialogue between the butler
and somebody else that I did not fully appreciate because I took
a more serious view of it being a tobacco advertisement. Would
you say that that was wrong that that should draw the attention
of a child, bearing in mind Mr Wilson's quite clear comments on
not being near schools? Children are quite mature in their humour,
even at the age of 11 and 12. Some of the stuff that they read
nowadays is very different from what some of us may have read
at a similar age.
(Mr Davis) Like yourself, Chairman, I have children
and children are naturally inquisitive and I think you will probably
find that your child and other children will ask questions about
lots of ads for various products in various product categories.
I would have to contend that the Lambert & Butler ads that
you see I see would have zero appeal to children and they are
designed to have zero appeal to children, but I do not think I
could say more than you cannot stop a child's inquisitiveness
about what it sees around him or her.
1007. It just struck me when we discussed in
particular targeting young people that she had seen the advertisement
and had certainly noticed it and was anxious to talk about what
was on it. The presentation certainly made her think about what
product was attached to the advertisement.
(Mr Davis) I cannot deny that she raised it, obviously,
but I can only assure you that it was in no way directed at her
or any child.
1008. But you can accept from that point that
perhaps even though it was not directed at youngsters they are
attracted to this kind of presentation, even though you are not
targeting that particular audience, or at least not overtly targeting
that audience?
(Mr Davis) I do not think I would necessarily say
they are attracted. I think children are very inquisitive.
(Mr Wilson) I think there is a difference between
curiosity and being attracted to and motivated to buy.
Chairman: I do not recall my daughter ever asking
about advertisements. It was this particular one that she noticed
because it impacted on her.
Mr Austin
1009. Going back to the point Mr Wilson made
about advertisements aimed at young women, let us look at young
men for a moment. Is it not true that the advertising style by
your companies, and the particular example I raise is Embassy
Lights, in male-style magazines aimed at young people, and particularly
read by young men, is quite different from the generic advertising
of Embassy Lights elsewhere and quite deliberately targeted at
a young audience?
(Mr Wilson) I am not going to talk about Embassy Lights.
1010. That is an example but I think it goes
across the brands.
(Mr Wilson) There may be differences but we are advertising
to informed adults and they may be younger smokers, they may be
older smokers, but we are not targeting those under 18, let alone
16.
1011. Are you taking any particular steps to
try to ensure that your advertising does not hit the under-16s
or appeal to them?
(Mr Wilson) The copy that is in our advertisements,
the pictures, the visuals, are all pre-vetted and cleared by the
Advertising Standards Authority and we do not advertise, we are
not allowed to, we have agreed voluntarily not to put posters
near schools. I cannot remember how many yards but there is a
formula for that, and we do not advertise in magazines directed
specifically at very young people. But there are young adults
who smoke and we have got to differentiate between them. We will
advertise to younger smokers. There are many people aged 18 or
more who are smokers and we will seek market share amongst that
group, but we will take what appropriate steps we can to avoid
any specific or direct appeal to children. I am not saying that
of course a child will never see a cigarette advertisement. We
have taken a number of steps to try and minimise that. For example,
we voluntarily agreed to take all the fascias off the fronts of
shops because we had a lot of shops with a cigarette brand name
over them on the fascia. We have taken all that off. The way we
place our advertisements and what the content of the advertisements
are, we do our best to ensure that the appeal to children is minimised.
(Mr Broughton) Can I go back for a moment and challenge
the assertion you made that we seek to ask for research to be
done on 15-year olds. I think that is what you said.
1012. I said that you sought to. I am saying
that the advertising companies that you employ do do research
and do rely upon market research.
(Mr Wilson) I think the particular research you are
referring to there was research that the advertising agency had
bought in from an outsider. It was general research and not research
conducted or organised or designed by a tobacco company or by
the advertising agency. It was generic research which is available
to anyone who is prepared to pay for it. They have their own categorisation,
their own ages.
1013. And you use them and rely on them?
(Mr Wilson) Yes. Anyone who buys it is going to use
it. You will get the full information. They categorise down to
15; we do not. We will never research under 15s.
1014. Can I put a question to each of you on
the code. I am advised that it was not 14 but perhaps we can deal
with that in correspondence. We said that the code of practice
said that smoking "should not be associated with people who
are wealthy, fashionable, sophisticated or successful or who possess
other attributes or qualities that may reasonably be expected
to command admiration or encourage emulation." Would you
therefore agree with me that the promotion of aspirational images
in marketing of a product is wrong?
(Mr Wilson) I think we have to be more specific. We
will not promote, and nor will the code permit us to promote,
a cigarette in a number of environments which would be embraced
by what you have said. Can you help me a bit more as to the sort
of thing that you have in mind?
1015. Association of the product with people
who are sophisticated, successful, wealthy,—
(Mr Wilson) In advertising?
1016. Advertising your product.
(Mr Wilson) We do not do that. I am trying to think
of an instance.
1017. I am not asking whether you do. I am asking
whether you agree that it is wrong to use aspirational imagery
of that kind to promote the smoking of cigarettes.
(Mr Wilson) Speaking as a generality it would be contrary
to the Code of Advertising Practice.
1018. And would be wrong in your view?
(Mr Wilson) Yes.
1019. Does that apply to you, Mr Broughton?
(Mr Broughton) No.
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