Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1020
- 1039)
THURSDAY 27 JANUARY 2000
MR MARTIN
BROUGHTON, MR
PETER WILSON,
MR GARETH
DAVIS, MR
DAVID DAVIES
AND DR
AXEL GIETZ
1020. You do not agree?
(Mr Broughton) I do not think it is necessarily wrong.
I agree entirely with Mr Wilson that in the UK situation we reached
an agreement, a voluntary agreement, with the Department of Health
as to what is acceptable and what is not acceptable in the UK.
Philosophically, is it wrong? Not necessarily. I can see certain
things which I would not consider to be acceptable but aspirational
as such, I do not think it is considered to be wrong. For the
person who has chosen to smoke I do not think it is necessarily
wrong.
(Mr Davies) I think it is entirely appropriate that
there should be codes and practices which are designed to ensure
that, neither by its content nor by its placement, is cigarette
advertising appealing to those who are under age.
(Mr Broughton) I agree with that.
(Dr Gietz) It is totally clear that we do not advertise
to minors. We do not even advertise to adult non-smokers. We have
a very strict internal marketing code that goes beyond what is
required of us in any market. Amy agency that works for us anywhere
has to sign that code. We certainly do not research minors, and
when we say "minors" we mean under 18, not under 16.
That is all I can add to what my colleagues have said.
(Mr Davis) We comply fully with the Code. I think
it is laid down very clearly in there that we cannot do anything
which is in any way associated with aspirational images, so it
would be quite wrong for us not to comply with the Code, with
the spirit as well as the letter of it. We would very much comply
with that.
1021. Can I come back on the other point because,
having the evidence before me, this was not bought in research
on 15 year olds. It was research which can be done specifically
with regard to Silk Cut smokers. It is in the evidence. You have
had an opportunity to look at it, but it was research which was
done to look at the different characteristics of Silk Cut smokers
who are in the 25 to 34 age group and Silk Cut smokers who were
in the 15 to 24 age group, and it suggested that in order to maintain
market share and ensure a future of the brand Silk Cut must capture
these people's values, so it does appear that research has been
carried out into 15 to 24 year olds on behalf of all of you.
(Mr Wilson) I would need to get back to you on that,
Mr Austin. It is not my understanding but I would prefer to look
at that properly and give you a proper answer to that.
Audrey Wise
1022. As you keep reminding us, the Code of
Practice applies to the UK. Do any of you advertise or market
your products elsewhere?
(Mr Davies) Yes.
(Mr Broughton) Yes.
(Mr Wilson) Yes.
(Mr Davis) Yes.
(Dr Gietz) Yes.
1023. Would I be right in saying that there
were advertisements in the USA that my colleague John Austin referred
to and that it is the Code of Advertising Practice rather than
your own inhibitions that saves us from similar advertisements?
(Mr Davies) Philip Morris has an internal code. Almost
without exception every provision of that code is designed to
ensure that our advertising is not appealing to people who are
under age, people who are less than 18. That code is applicable
to our marketing activities in every country in which we do business.
1024. Appealing to women specifically? What
is your stance on that? Femininity, independence, both of them
forbidden by the Code of Advertising Practice here.
(Mr Davies) I think it is perfectly appropriate to
fashion a communication which is designed to speak to a female
adult smoker and we do that.
1025. You do not know beforehand who is going
to look at your advert. A Marie Claire reader might be
a smoker, a non-smoker. The adverts in this—there is "The
mysterious power of my voice endures", "My essence glows",
"My heart dances", "My voice sings", "The
eyes are the messengers of the soul, the voice reveals the spirits",
and then there is Virginia Slims, "Find your voice".
I would say that those adverts, which have got a different ethnic
image incidentally, the lady in each of them, are definitely designed
to appeal to the notion that it is independence which is expressed
by a woman who smokes, "Find your voice". You might
lose your voice with throat cancer but they are suggesting you
find it first through making them a bit richer. That sort of advert,
as you would agree, is forbidden because it emphasises independence
and glamour, and the images in each case are very attractive women.
Why are you so much more ahead of other manifestations of big
tobacco elsewhere in your approach on these things?
(Mr Wilson) Do you mean the United Kingdom industry?
1026. Yes. You do not do this here but of course
there is the Code of Advertising Practice to stop you. You also
implied or told—if not, I am asking you directly—do
you do it elsewhere? If not, what is there about you that is so
much in advance of your colleagues?
(Mr Wilson) I would be delighted to address that because
it touches on points that were discussed last time. The code of
practice that we operate here has developed over many, many years.
We have worked with the Advertising Standards Authority and with
the Department of Health as an appropriate exercise of responsibility,
recognising the problems inherent in our product. This has gone
on for 20 or more years. I cannot remember when the first voluntary
agreement and the first Code of Advertising Practice specifically
relating to cigarettes was developed, but it was many, many years
ago. I think it is an excellent example of the success of the
voluntary agreement system that is operated here, a classic example.
1027. I am perfectly in favour of the Code of
Advertising Practice in the absence of an advertising ban, which
I am even more in favour of. What intrigues me is that applies
to the United Kingdom. How do you advertise or market your products
elsewhere, or do you not? Is all your marketing and advertising
activity of all your large and powerful companies directed only
here, or is some of it overseas? If it is, do you still follow
the Code of Advertising Practice which protects us in this country
or do you feel freer to advertise in the way that you wish? It
is a simple enough question.
(Mr Broughton) We do more advertising outside this
country than we do in this country. It is exactly the same as
Mr Davies said on my left. We have an internal code of practice
fundamentally aimed at avoiding under 18s. It has a series of
different things in it but fundamentally the objective of it is
under 18s. It would include not using famous people or recognisable
people in any sense. It would not necessarily exclude using people.
Where it uses people, it would make a requirement that they were
25 and looked 25 or more. That is to avoid too young a look. We
do not take the view that the United Kingdom code as such should
have worldwide jurisdiction.
1028. How is this interpreted specifically in
relation to marketing and advertising to women?
(Mr Broughton) As far as advertising and marketing
to women, we would not use any well recognised specific women
in adverts, but we would use women in adverts. We would advertise
to women. We would not ignore any sector of the smoking adult
public. I think it is axiomatic. Once you have consumers, they
have chosen to smoke. It is appropriate for corporations, in order
to achieve a greater market share, to tailor a product to any
specific individual type of person. Yes, we would have brands
which are aimed more at females than anybody else.
1029. What would their image be? What would
their message be?
(Mr Broughton) Different brands might have different
images.
1030. Yours?
(Mr Broughton) We do not just have one brand aimed
at women.
1031. Give us the list then.
(Mr Broughton) Capri, for example, is a brand which
is probably the brand in our range which is more female orientated
than anything else. Style: sophistication would come into that.
It is a very slim cigarette. Vogue would be a very similar product
to Capri and advertised on a very similar basis because it used
to be a Rothmans brand before the acquisition. They were competing
brands, but that would be in our portfolio as well, run on a very
similar line. Other brands like Kent are not specifically aimed
at females but would have a higher female franchise than a brand
like Lucky Strike which, for some reason, has virtually no female
franchises. It is a very masculine brand. Likeness: very low tar.
It is something we do and I think it is appropriate to target
certain brands at different sectors of the community.
Audrey Wise: Do you advertise at all to United
Kingdom customers who might be abroad temporarily, on holiday,
for example?
Chairman: We touched on this at some length
last week.
Audrey Wise: It was not very satisfactorily
answered.
Chairman: The advertising and marketing people
were clearly looking at the way in which English editions in Spain
can be used to get round the restrictions in the United Kingdom
by your companies.
Audrey Wise
1032. Specifically, posters in Malaga Airport,
for example.
(Mr Wilson) I do not believe we do. We will advertise
to tourists if at all in the retail outlets, at the point of sale,
informing them that the brands are there and that there is a good
price at Malaga Airport, or whatever. I do not believe—I
will write to you if I am not accurate in this—that we advertise
in the newspapers and the magazines in overseas countries directed
at United Kingdom tourists.
(Mr Broughton) It would seem, on the face of things,
unlikely because we would advertise a brand, for example, in Spain
to the Spanish consumer, possibly differently than we would advertise
in the United Kingdom to a United Kingdom consumer. That is a
separate issue, but in terms of advertising a United Kingdom brand
to a United Kingdom person on holiday the principal thing you
would be trying to do is to reinforce any image that he already
has so as to reassure him it is exactly the same brand. If you
had different advertising, the implication would be it may not
be the same cigarette or it may be made locally in Spain rather
than made here and it may taste differently. Fundamentally, one
would try to do the same reinforcing process that is behind the
image already, so it seems an unlikely thing to be doing.
1033. Would you stick health warnings on?
(Mr Broughton) On the advert?
1034. Yes.
(Mr Wilson) If we were advertising in Spain, we would
put Spanish health warnings on the advertisements, as we do on
our packs.
1035. The drawback of course, Mr Broughton,
from your point of view, when you talk about targeting existing
smokers, is that as far as women are concerned in most places
they are probably to your rather unsatisfactory lower segment
of the population, so you stick to the notion that it is only
existing smokers. When you have your style, sophistication and
your brand, you are expecting non-smokers' eyes to glaze over
and for them not to be attracted.
(Mr Broughton) Yes. All of the evidence that I have
ever seen, and I think you will find all the evidence that you
can discover too, does not suggest that people start smoking because
of adverts. It is peer pressure, parental behaviour and all sorts
of things.
1036. I understand all that and we have had
all that a great deal, Mr Broughton, but the issue is these things
do not exist in isolation. For example, parental example and parental
approval or disapproval can be affected by how adverts impact
on the parents. These things are not in watertight compartments.
They all interact. The idea that your advertising, even to smoking
adults, has no impact on anybody else in the population just does
not bear examination. Anyway, what you are telling me, all of
you, is that although the Code of Advertising Practice only binds
you in the United Kingdom nevertheless you do not advertise in
ways stressing, for example, femininity and independence in any
marketing or advertising you do overseas?
(Mr Broughton) I did not say that. I said the contrary:
not to United Kingdom consumers.
1037. I was making it more general. I understand
you protect the United Kingdom consumers because you have no choice,
but do you market any of your brands overseas? Do you advertise
and, if you do, do you advertise in accordance with the Code of
Advertising Practice here in relation to women or not?
(Mr Broughton) I specifically said we do not take
the United Kingdom as having jurisdiction over the whole world.
(Dr Gietz) We advertise according to our internal
code that I have referred to in addition to voluntary agreements
or other requirements in any given market. There are two types
of brands. One is a global brand such as our brand, Camel; another
is a local brand. Advertising may be tailored to local environments.
Coming back to the issue of female smokers, I am not saying this
is good or bad—I am just stating it as my interpretation
of what I know—but female smoking tends to be a reflection
of growing emancipation of women in their given society. I am
an historian by training. The Suffragettes in this country smoked.
It was a sign of their emancipating themselves from the male yoke,
if you like, by taking up a habit that was characterised or was
seen as something only for men. I do not think they were exposed
to a lot of advertising. Obviously on the issue of advertising
bans we may not find an agreement. As I have said before, advertising
bans from a public health point of view might be even counter
productive if we cannot communicate about certain types of products
that address health issues. Advertising, to my knowledge, does
not lead to anyone taking up smoking. The evidence just is not
there.
1038. Mr Davis, since I mentioned Malaga Airport
I now know why that was in my mind. It related to evidence we
had from the advertisers which related to your company. You were
the client. It says, "Background. CAP's rules and regulations
considerably restrict what we can do in the United Kingdom. The
CAP rules do not apply outside the United Kingdom. There are very
good media opportunities targeting United Kingdom customers abroad,
particularly aimed at holiday charter flight traffic." It
goes on to list some things and it specifically mentions as an
opportunity airport posters in popular holiday destinations, e.g.,
Malaga Airport. It says, "We are looking at the media opportunities
available in detail but predominantly ..." and the airport
is one of them, "... charter airline magazines, tabloid press,
ex-UK editions." I know that you will say that you are advised
by your advertisers but you do not necessarily take their suggestions.
Undoubtedly that is true, but you are actually buying full pages
in the Spanish editions of the tabloid press, giving, "an
excellent hit at UK holiday makers abroad. Because we are advertising
outside the United Kingdom we do not have to worry about CAP approval.
We can therefore be far more flexible with dialogue, props and
wardrobe." I just wondered if you would like to comment,
Mr Davis, since this is about your company.
(Mr Davis) The point about CAP approval is obvious.
CAP is a totally British scenario, so it does not apply outside
the United Kingdom. The ads that you refer to in popular British
daily papers which have a Spanish edition because of the vast
number of British holiday makers who go to the Costas of Spain
and the vast number of British people who reside in Spain—obviously
those numbers of people justify the circulation of a British newspaper.
Yes, it would appear we have advertised in those papers and I
am sure we will have conformed with the standards as required
in the Spanish domestic market. In terms of the wider, international
issue, we are a relatively new entrant to international markets.
We do have over 20 odd years of experience on the voluntary code
in the United Kingdom and that is very much in our minds and in
our style and content and tends to be reflective of the standards
we adopt in the United Kingdom.
1039. These things I have read show a strong
impression of people who are feeling they can fling off these
restrictions and get a breath of freedom in what they do. These
ones incidentally are not women specifically. These are for the
lower income groups and there is some very good advice: "Keep
the humour very simple and of the people. They simply do not get
anything remotely tricky." It suggests also warm and friendly
expressions on the characters. That would not imply anything dreadful
that you are doing with your freedom, but the relishing of the
freedom from the CAP is clear in these extracts.
(Mr Davis) I think it is a question of tone Chairman.
I find it difficult to agree or disagree with that. I do not know
the origin of the document or its context but I think it is fair
to say we have the same sort of approach to our advertising wherever
we are.
Audrey Wise: In that case, you had better give
some different briefings and instructions to those handling it
on your behalf.
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