Examination of witnesses (Questions 1340
- 1354)
WEDNESDAY 9 FEBRUARY 2000
RT HON
ALAN MILBURN
and MS YVETTE
COOPER
Chairman
1340. Could I just add to the point in relation
to Mr Clarke because obviously the article he wrote in The
Guardian a week last Monday was of interest to us because
as a former Chancellor and a former Secretary of State for Health
he appeared to be arguing that the consistent rises in the taxation
levels were a contributing factor in relation to the smuggling
problem which had harmful health effects. He did not say that
at the time he was Chancellor or Secretary of State for Health,
but he is saying that now. I wondered whether you had any thoughts
on that particular point.
(Mr Milburn) I think he is fundamentally wrong and
I think the evidence worldwide, certainly from Europe, suggests
that the smuggling problem, which is a very very very big problem
indeed, is not just a problem that is peculiar to high tobacco
tax countries—and ours is, I make no bones about that and
rightly so in my view—it is a problem that so-called low
tax tobacco countries also face in Europe. There is increasing
evidence of smuggling activity being very very well organised
indeed. This is not just a fly-by-night approach. The evidence
would suggest that it is very very well organised indeed and that
is why the Chancellor, as you are aware, in the Pre-Budget Report
suggested a number of very helpful changes, e.g. the introduction
of X-ray machines, different markings on packs and the possibility
of changes in penalties which I think would be widely welcomed
and would make a real difference as far as smuggling is concerned.
If that is what Mr Clarke is suggesting—and I have not read
his article in The Guardian—then I think he is wrong
and I think both his experience and ours and other experiences
elsewhere in Europe would suggest that he is wrong.
1341. I may have misrepresented what he is implying,
but we will have him before the Committee next week which should
be interesting.
(Mr Milburn) You will get the verdict from the horse's
mouth so to speak. I have read the other Guardian report
about the allegations and if they are true then they are very
very serious allegations indeed. Certainly, from the Government's
point of view, we abhor smuggling wherever it occurs, it is an
illegal activity whoever undertakes it. I look forward to hearing
the conclusions of the hearing that you are due to have again
with the companies concerned.
Mr Hesford
1342. Companies have told us that the proposed
advertising ban will limit their opportunities to market what
they want to describe as their new form of safe cigarettes. There
is a sort of irony there which is "They would say that, wouldn't
they?" We all want the ban to come in, but is there a role
for Government in facilitating the development of those cigarettes
and, if there is, what shape would it take?
(Mr Milburn) I am very very cautious about this whole
debate. I think you have taken evidence from one of the companies,
Star, about the idea that there is a safe cigarette. I start from
a pretty fundamental premise not based on my prejudices but based
on scientific evidence that I have read very very carefully and
the advice that I receive which suggests that the pursuit of a
safe cigarette is going to be a pretty fruitless pursuit.
Mr Amess
1343. Customs and Excise has estimated that
all forms of tobacco smuggling will cost Britain £2.5 billion
in lost revenue this year, £1.5 billion of this arising due
to organised container smuggling rather than cross-Channel bootlegging.
Given these facts, I wondered if the Secretary of State could
tell us, given his previous role, if he believes the £35
million allocated by the Comprehensive Spending Review over three
years to combat tobacco and alcohol fraud with the scanners and
labels announced in the Pre-Budget Report is a wholly adequate
response to this very, very real problem?
(Mr Milburn) Thankfully, that is not a matter any
longer for me! I admit it used to be, but it is not any more.
That is something which the current Chief Secretary will admirably
cope with, and the Chancellor will too. In all seriousness, the
measures which were announced by the Chancellor in the PBR were
extremely important. It followed Mark Taylor's inquiry into this
area which was an independent inquiry and he has made a number
of recommendations, some of which have already been actioned.
I cannot say whether there have been others because I have not
seen his report but it is clear the steps which are taken are
going to be significant ones. These x-ray scanners which we need
to place in the most appropriate places will make a real difference.
1344. You do not feel able to comment on the
£35 million and why it is not more?
(Mr Milburn) I think it is wiser for me not to comment
on anybody else's budget.
Mrs Gordon
1345. Someone told me that they could go into
their local pub and buy cheap cigarettes and they know they are
smuggled cigarettes because the information is all in French,
so we obviously know the origin of those.
(Mr Milburn) Bit of a give-away!
1346. You mentioned marks on packets, have you
considered or would you be in favour of some kind of bar code
on each packet of cigarettes which designates their origin?
(Mr Milburn) That is what the Chancellor proposed
in the PBR, that is what packets henceforth will have on them.
There is going to be a mark on all packets of cigarettes which
will say, "UK duty paid", so it makes it absolutely
clear these are UK cigarettes. It will also have "Not to
be sold after a certain date". There are good reasons for
doing that too because there is some evidence to suggest that
the companies have been in some way managing to avoid the tax
which otherwise they might have been liable to pay by forestalling
the way they deal with the supplies of cigarettes. So there will
be a double benefit, in my view, and this will be actioned I think
fairly shortly.
Audrey Wise
1347. I think it is clear and pretty obvious
that if efforts in Europe and North America are successful in
continuing to cause a reduction in smoking, tobacco companies
will look elsewhere for their markets, notably the Third World
and hitherto fairly untapped places like China. I appreciate you
are Secretary of State for Health in the UK—or just England
and Wales now but—
(Mr Milburn) England. I cannot deal with any more
really!
1348. Diminishing by the second! Bearing that
in mind, do you ever give any thought, or does the Government
give any thought, as to whether and if so in what way the British
Government can be of any help in thwarting the tobacco companies'
plans to cause deaths in the Third World if we succeed in reducing
our deaths?
(Mr Milburn) I think that is a very, very important
point indeed. We have a very high incidence of smoking in this
country comparatively—I think we have 12 or 13 million adult
smokers in this country at the moment—but literally the
numbers of people smoking worldwide are well over 1 billion or
even more—I do not know—and many of those will be
in poorer countries. We are working quite closely with the World
Health Organisation on some of these issues and I think this is
important too because this battle about smoking and so on is not
just about the UK or about the European Union, it is a worldwide
issue. There are efforts being undertaken led by the World Health
Organisation, quite commendably in my view, and we are taking
a leading part in those to try and do what we can to fulfil our
international as well as our national obligations. If it is helpful
to the Committee, I will gladly send you a note on what the World
Health Organisation is planning.
Chairman: We are aware of the proposed Framework
Convention which we have in circulation and we appreciate it.
Mr Gunnell
1349. When we got on to the issue of passive
smoking we went on to a rather extremist aspect of it.
(Mr Milburn) I did?
Chairman: I think he said the Committee did.
Mr Gunnell
1350. I suggested the police and you had in
mind the regular police would be used. Are workers sufficiently
protected in the workplace? Do you have any view on legislation
so far as the workplace goes?
(Mr Milburn) I think you know, Mr Gunnell, that in
the White Paper we announced our intention to look at an improved
code of practice around this ACOP that was referred to which the
Health and Safety Executive have been consulting on. Their consultation
has now ended. I think they got 500 responses in total. It seems
to me to be a sensible idea. Obviously we have got to introduce
it in an appropriate way. We have got to get the right level of
regulation in the system. I think it is certainly true that workers
who work in very smoky environments deserve the full protection
of the law.
John Austin: Would it apply to the Palace of
Westminster?
Chairman
1351. Think about that one, Secretary of State.
(Mr Milburn) I suspect it does not because this place
has different rules, as I think you are aware.
John Austin
1352. Perhaps you could talk to the Palace authorities.
(Mr Milburn) That is a very tempting prospect.
Chairman: Are there any further points from
my colleagues?
Mr Gunnell
1353. Given that we have talked all night about
cigarettes being the most dangerous thing around that people can
easily lay their hands on, would there be a case for licensing
the ability to sell cigarettes altogether because then we would
be able to remove the permission to sell them?
(Mr Milburn) I think I am right in saying that effectively
it is licensed at the moment expressly[1],
but I think the problem is not so much the sort of rules and regulations
or the laws that you put around this area, it is just how effectively
you enforce them and I think there is a very big gap there that
we will just have to make up in the way that these things are
dealt with.
Chairman
1354. Do either of our witnesses have any final
points you want to make on areas that we have not covered that
you anticipated we might?
(Mr Milburn) No.
Chairman: Then we have done a thorough job.
Can I, on behalf of the Committee, Secretary of State, Minister,
thank you for your attendance. I am sorry it has been such a long
session, but we do appreciate your help with this inquiry.
1 The Department of Health later confirmed there is
no current licensing system for selling tobacco products. Back
| 
