Examination of witnesses (Questions 240
- 259)
THURSDAY 23 MARCH 2000
ROSS MOUNTAIN,
KATARINATOLL-VELASQUEZ
and GILBERT GREENALL
240. Were they there on 12th February?
(Katarina Toll-Velasquez) The South African helicopters?
241. Yes.
(Katarina Toll-Velasquez) Yes, they were already there.
242. They were already working. So they worked
for the first week using fuel and personnel from the South African
Air Force. In the second week fuel came from the Nordic countries
and in the third week it came from DFID. Is that right?
(Gilbert Greenall) I think there has been a misunderstanding
about fuel. It was running costs of $100,000 a day. The fuel was
a relatively insignificant proportion of that. In the first week
we were there it was clear they were going to run out of funds
and it was at that time we tried to mobilise the international
donors to support them.
243. The first week is the 12th to the 19th,
is it not? There already had been mobilised when you got there
five helicopters distributing food. It is the World Food Programme
so I assume what they were doing was distributing food.
(Ross Mountain) Not exactly. My colleague has just
corrected me that while the UN raised the resources from the donors
it was channelled through the government not through the WFP in
the first place. Subsequently it was channelled through WFP and
WFP was named to be in charge of logistics for the relief operation
in conjunction with the INGC, not just for food. Yes for food
but also for moving other supplies as well. We felt it was essential
for a co-ordinating operation to have one central place where
all the air and water assets be tasked and WFP served as a focal
point for logistics in that respect.
Ann Clwyd
244. We actually saw two helicopters on the
Tuesday of the week we were there which were operating when the
road came to an end about 30 miles outside Maputo. They were obviously
very over-stretched. They were flying off in rapid rotation. They
were not switching off their engines when they landed. We saw
food and tents (from the United Kingdom actually) being taken
off the helicopters. Talking to people there from the UN they
said they were working under difficulties because they had so
few helicopters. Where were the other three operating if there
were five initially?
(Gilbert Greenall) They were mostly working in the
Limpopo River basin area. Some were working out of Chibuto on
the other side of the Limpopo.
245. Obviously at that stage (when they were
not called on to rescue anyone) they were over-stretched because
they were telling us that there were people who had been without
food for at least four days throughout that time and obviously
five helicopters could not cover the area of the country in which
they were meant to operate.
(Ross Mountain) Let me just add, first of all, that
Malawi's contribution should be recognised as well. They made
available two helicopters in Beira which were operating out of
Beira. It is important their contribution be noted. That was after
the 26th, was it?
Chairman
246. If you say there were two Malawi helicopters,
we had heard of one from Malawi and that was 50 per cent of the
total strength of helicopters of the Malawi government. We were
very impressed by that. You said two which is all their helicopters.
(Ross Mountain) One had engine trouble when I was
in Beira.
247. So there were two and they were both the
helicopters Malawi had.
(Ross Mountain) If they had two.
Chairman: I was told the total strength
was two.
Ann Clwyd: That was after the 26th.
Chairman: Sorry, you are very right to
keep me in order.
Ann Clwyd
248. Were you at that time attempting to locate
more helicopters or was funding such a problem in your mind? I
wonder why OCHA who were the umbrella organisation co-ordinating
the relief had to worry about where the funding was going to come
from to continue the five helicopters they had at that time.
(Ross Mountain) Before passing to one of you to pick
up the issue of further helicopters, I am afraid it is not unusual
to be operating under stress in disaster response situations.
In fact, that is the norm. In fact, we rarely have as much we
would like to have in order to be able to do a perfect job. You
make do with what you have there. You try and get additional assets
but you must realise—I understand that the word had gone
out that additional helicopter assets were needed—we were
focussing on keeping the essential core going but with the waters
going down, with the expectation that soon more roads would be
open, we do not seek to keep going on expensive air assets. Right
now, for example, WFP is seeking to support the fixing of roads
so we can go down and use road transport which is much more cost
effective. I am afraid it is not unusual that we are operating
at stretch point. That is the norm. Just because we could use
another five or ten helicopters, that would be super, but if we
have got five operating, we are ahead of the game by five often.
Katarina, would you like to add to that?
(Katarina Toll-Velasquez) As a matter of fact, there
are a couple of points regarding that. The first point is that
on 15th February there was a donor meeting in Maputo chaired by
the Director of the Natural Disaster Management Institute at which
we also were present and the South African mission at that meeting
informed us they would be running out of funds on 20th February,
that they were looking for financial support, that otherwise they
would have to leave and stop the operation. They said that they
could get more helicopters into the country but of course that
was also a problem of funding so the first priority was to let
those helicopters that were working at that time continue to do
the work and the related priority was that if there was more funding
forthcoming they would be able to get more helicopters into the
country. At the same time WFP was looking to rent a caravan and
they issued a request.
249. Rent a caravan?
(Gilbert Greenall) Caravan aircraft.
(Ross Mountain) As opposed to the thing you go on
holidays in, right!
(Katarina Toll-Velasquez) They were looking to rent
that and of course they were looking for funding for that and
they issued a one page request for a budget and they had been
talking informally with USAID regarding this and USAID was very
interested in providing funding. They ended up funding most, if
not all, of it. WFP also went round different funding missions
looking for funding for that caravan. So there was an effort on-going
at that time to try to look for additional assets on the part
of the UN system in support of the Government.
250. Thank you.
(Gilbert Greenall) It was a major constraint both
in raising the funds and also to sort out the logistics management
problem which WFP was finally able to run professionally itself.
Chairman
251. I am sorry I am going to ask another question
on this, if I may, because in the period to 25th February, I think
you have just told us, Katarina, that you were looking for extra
funds for what you call a caravan which I assume is fixed-wing
aircraft, but you were not looking for more helicopters. Is that
right?
(Katarina Toll-Velasquez) As I said earlier, the South
Africans had indicated they could bring in more helicopters if
they had the funding so we were trying to raise interest in funding
for those that were on the ground and, if possible, additional
ones to be brought into the country. I think the way we reasoned
at that time was because there was not a whole lot of money around
that that was the most cost-effective solution for donors to be
attracted to that kind of undertaking.
252. So was OCHA telling donors of the need
for more helicopters in addition to the five South African helicopters
already flying?
(Katarina Toll-Velasquez) This was an on-going discussion
at local level with donor representatives in country. Some donors
had representatives in country who had come down for assessment.
This was an on-going discussion. We also of course sent back that
message to headquarters.
Ms King
253. You said there were logistic management
problems in terms of getting helicopters and eventually it was
WFP who sorted that out. Who would normally be in charge of it?
If the same thing were to happen next week, would it be WFP who
would be looking to resolve that logistical problem.
(Ross Mountain) We need to go back. Dealing with a
natural disaster is normally the responsibility of the Government
of the country concerned. The UN system responds immediately and
its role is supporting the sovereign Government in a country that
has a mechanism for responding to disasters. We do not unilaterally
decide who manages Mozambique's airspace. This is a process of
interaction and working out how we can best support. It generally
works pretty well.
254. So what would the lesson learned be? Would
it be that one of the first things done next time would be to
establish the weakness in the Government's ability, say, to manage
this logistical problem? I am trying to work out what the pattern
would be for future responses.
(Ross Mountain) The pattern for future responses (and
this response) was to recognise that the Government's mechanism,
which was in the process of reform, was not fully equipped to
deal with an unprecedented situation and therefore to offer our
support in ensuring under their overall government leadership
that they can call upon the expertise that the UN system has available
both in country and out of country. We supplied the UNDAC team
through the WFP strengthening its logistical basis and so on.
But we have a sovereign Government—
Chairman
255. Let's talk about the sovereign Government
and the UNDAC team that was working until the 24th. That team
led by the Mozambique Government had concluded, as I understand
you, that the water was going down, the whole situation was under
control, you had got five helicopters from South Africa. Dr Greenall
had organised some further support for the helicopters for the
following week so they could continue to operate. The situation
was under control and you were not asking, although you say it
was an on-going discussion—I want to pin you down because
"on-going discussion" is not definite enough for me—you
were not calling on donors to provide more than the helicopters
that were operating admittedly under pressure but nonetheless
doing the job up until 24th February. Is that right or not?
(Katarina Toll-Velasquez) My understanding is that
we were alerting in the different ways that an UNDAC team in a
country is supposed to use to a need. I think we were doing that
both at local level and back to headquarters. So I do think we
used every possible channel.
256. On the 24th you were getting on the plane
and you were quite happy that the situation was under control,
that you were no longer needed, you had got the five helicopters
resourced, they going to continue to work and that was it. Is
that right?
(Katarina Toll-Velasquez) We had the day before launched
the appeal so we were going into the continuous assistance phase
in which normally the UNDAC team has basically completed its work.
As I said earlier, we had spent part of the second part of the
week making sure that the UN in-country team was prepared to take
over and they were and they were very forthcoming and co-operative.
We had a support structure ready and also of course the message
we received from the Government and the UN in-country team was
that there was not a need for us to be there any more. There was
nothing we could do in addition to what they could do.
257. The evidence given to this Committee by
the London end of DFID is they did not get any requests for anything
additional to fuelling and resourcing helicopters flying so that
suggests that at least one donor was not aware and was not being
called upon to provide more helicopters at that stage. I hope
that is the position. I do not want to get the position wrong.
Can I move on to another question that arises it seems to me.
As Mrs Clwyd has said, the meteorological forecasts were dire.
I only had to look at my television in my room in Malawi to know
that. This was not only Eline but several others behind it. I
know they are not necessarily reliable but you had just had a
hurricane go through and hurricanes drop a huge amount of water
and that water comes down rivers. It seems to me entirely predictable,
as Dr Greenall did actually say, that the situation was going
to get worse but we did not take any precautions, did not get
any resources mobilised in case it did get worse. Is that right?
(Gilbert Greenall) The first thing is it was not a
hurricane, it was cyclone. There is a big difference. Certainly
the satellite images look just the same but the wind speeds we
were predicting from Eline were 66 knots which is not 120 miles
an hour like the things you get in the Caribbean, so there was
quite a difference in scale. But the reports—
258. I do not think we want to quibble about
the difference between a cyclone and hurricane. It is a question
of the amount of water they are carrying and going to dump on
the land, is it not?
(Gilbert Greenall) Absolutely and again the reports
were very contradictory on that. Moving south, moving west, we
did not have accurate reports.
Ann Clwyd: We were not able to fly by
helicopter to the area we planned to fly to because the helicopter
pilot said the weather was so unpredictable he was not prepared
to take the risk but the situation changed the following day when
a larger aircraft agreed to take us there but could not promise
to bring us back. In our hotel the hotel owners was battening
down the hatches on the Tuesday night we were there. So the weather
forecast for a lay person looked very threatening and people in
Maputo were taking precautions on the nights we were there because
they anticipated that one or two of the cyclones were going to
hit. So I still come away with the feeling that if it was as unpredictable
as that, why were the arrangements not made in the event either
way?
Chairman
259. If it got worse?
(Gilbert Greenall) One of the last things we heard
before Eline struck was that most of the rainfall was expected
on the coast north of Inhambane. Rainfall in Mozambique is not
the problem. It is rainfall and the head waters of the rivers
that was the problem. That is where the major concern was. If
the rain had come and been on the coast where you wanted to fly
and where it was expected we would not have had the rivers rising
in the way they did.
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