Examination of witnesses (Questions 260
- 279)
THURSDAY 23 MARCH 2000
ROSS MOUNTAIN,
KATARINATOLL-VELASQUEZ
and GILBERT GREENALL
Chairman
260. It rained a hell of a lot in Zambia while
we were there. It rained four days solid which will have an effect
on rivers reaching Beira.
(Gilbert Greenall) If I am correct the Zambia rains
go down the Zambeze.
261. That is probably right but the estuary
is close to Beira, is it not?
(Gilbert Greenall) North.
262. North of Beira.
(Ross Mountain) But, as I understand it, cyclone Eline
went through in fact on Tuesday when you were battening down windows
at your hotel. It went in south of Beira in the end. We are talking
about a departure on the Friday, I guess it is. You left on the
Thursday. But by then the cyclone had passed through Mozambique
and you had been checking neighbouring countries?
(Gilbert Greenall) Absolutely. We checked on the morning
after the cyclone passed. We rang round every single agency in
Maputo and Beira to have reports on damage and what the weather
had actually done. We had a presentation at the daily brief on
that collated information and it was not as bad as we had anticipated.
We were surprised that most of the damage caused by the cyclone
was actually at the mouth of the Save. You can see from the air
today that it is a very localised effect in the first 20 miles
of the Save River. It was rainfall in Zimbabwe that was the real
problem and it was fours days later that this rain actually arrived
in Limpopo.
Ann Clwyd
263. Yet the weather forecast today on the BBC
News says "We would expect towns in Mozambique to be
swamped by flood waters after a dangerous rise in the level of
the Limpopo."
(Katarina Toll-Velasquez) There have been some alerts
in the past few days that there might be a new wave coming down.
As I understand from the field again this morning, this is a US
military recce over the region concerned, that is the Limpopo
river, the Elephantes River which joins the Limpopo, Cho«kwe"
in particular and Xai-Xai. These are communities. According to
the report this morning, so this record was yesterday, there was
no trace of any water wave coming down. As a matter of fact, the
waters in the Limpopo River have been receding over the past days.
There is a standing alert that families should not move back to
their homes because of course we do not know now what is going
to happen. I think the Government is taking a very very cautious
attitude right now with regard to sending back people. They are
in alert mode still but we were not able to confirm these alarming
reports.
Chairman
264. So you do not trust them nonetheless?
(Katarina Toll-Velasquez) Trust whom, sorry?
265. The reports. You have been let down by
them once.
(Ross Mountain) We are very wary. We have people there
now. When I say "we" I speak of the Government and the
international community which has not only the helicopters there
but now a lot of boats which were not there earlier on (including
some supplied by the UK) and still a large number of people to
help the Government manage any kind of crisis that may occur.
We are, of course, doubly alert at this stage after the previous
experience.
266. It was the rain in Zimbabwe that caused
the problems of the rise of the flood water and it took four days
for that rain to arrive in the Maputo area down the Limpopo. Is
that right?
(Ross Mountain) Both Zimbabwe and South Africa in
that area.
267. Did Zimbabwe report this heavy rain to
you?
(Gilbert Greenall) We have got the report from the
24th.
(Katarina Toll-Velasquez) There were reports of rains
but there was really nothing that was different from the daily
fluctuations in rainfall, the reports that we were given. I think
the weather forecasting services have also improved now. If they
suspect any kind of rise they will send out a warning with the
kind of language that is very clear. That was not available to
us at that time.
268. Does Zimbabwe have adequate resources on
the Limpopo and its head waters to alert Mozambique to heavy rain
falls that might cause trouble?
(Katarina Toll-Velasquez) That would be very difficult
for me to respond to, I am sorry.
269. You do not know. It seems to me there has
got to be better regional co-operation if we are to forecast properly
the sort of floods in the Limpopo Estuary and Save River.
(Ross Mountain) Chairman, indeed, as I hope I made
clear in my opening remarks, that we did not know and nobody,
I am afraid, was predicting these floods. That came in out of
the clear blue sky over Mozambique that weekend. Clearly that
means we collectively as an international community and in support
particularly of SADEC need to find structures and mechanisms to
exchange information on this. I think there are nine rivers that
rise in other countries that cross Mozambique so this is obviously
a priority. The Government is aware of it. Indeed, I believe when
Katarina and Gilbert were leaving that first time the last discussion
they had with the Foreign Minister was about the importance of
building up their capacity to deal with the normal run of floods.
I repeat this was not normal run of floods.
270. But it happens every year.
(Ross Mountain) They do have floods and they have
droughts, as we know, but 1.5 metres coming down the river, I
am sorry, it was absolutely unexpected. Let's find out how we
can expect this kind of thing through regional corporation, different
monitoring. I am afraid when I say "we" it is the international
community supporting the governments in those countries and SADEC
in particular has shown quite a lot of interest in moving ahead
on that outcome of the Maputo Summit. We as UN organisations will
provide support in both disaster management training in terms
of flood watershed management and mitigation policies, if we can
be helpful.
271. Was there in the OCHA team anybody trained
to interpret raw meteorological data so as to understand possible
natural disasters?
(Ross Mountain) It so happened we had on that team
the Deputy Director of the Zambia Met Office with all available
data and Mozambique colleagues in the region.
(Gilbert Greenall) He devoted his entire time to that
mission with both the Mozambique Met Office and the Mozambique
hydrology organisation, liaising with neighbouring countries for
data on both those subjects.
272. If it takes four days from the time the
rain falls in Zimbabwe to the time it arrives in the Maputo area,
why do you not have four days' notice of a rise in river levels?
(Gilbert Greenall) I think, as I have mentioned before,
the correlation between rainfall and the river regimes is very
uncertain and I was enormously surprised at the speed at which
the river goes up. Some of the graphs we have got illustrate that
very well. There are sudden rises in less than 12 hours at times.
It is very difficult to predict.
Chairman: I think we should now move
on to the escalation of the crisis from 25th February. We have
got the OCHA team safely back to their homes on the 24th and 25th
and so we need to look at the period from the 25th. Ms Oona King
will lead on that.
Ms King
273. Of course, hindsight is a very wonderful
thing as obviously politicians know best of all! Seeing we are
on helicopters I would like to stay on helicopters for a moment.
I can understand why you left. It may not have been the most appropriate
thing to do but I can understand it. Our own report we got was
that the weather was fluctuating all the time throughout the time
you were there. What I cannot understand is why it appears that
there were a lot of donors casting all around the world looking
for those helicopters and why there did not seem to be any available
assessment of what equipment was where and so, for instance, we
heard that DFID was on the phone to goodness knows where all around
the world and presumably other donors were as well. Is that something
that OCHA would or should consider doing?
(Ross Mountain) In terms of availability of helicopters
in the area we were aware of the availability of additional helicopters
from South Africa. The mechanism of DFID was extremely useful
to us for flowing—
274. Was DFID the only donor doing it or were
other donors doing it?
(Ross Mountain) From South Africa? I have to have
advice on that. In terms of helicopters I think it was essentially
DFID that hired helicopters through the World Food Programme which
is our UN mechanism generally for managing logistical support
and they responded very quickly. Again I want to recognise funding
came through very quickly from DFID for $1 million on that weekend
and that was deployed through WFP very quickly bringing in a further
five helicopters. That came on at that time. Not every government
seeks to employ third country assets in responding to these crises
for whatever reason that might be and, therefore, some prefer
to use their own assets because it is a sign of solidarity with
the country, some believe they should use their own assets as
a matter of economics or whatever, but though we got up to nearly
60 aircraft at one point it was not suggested these all had to
be found in the sub-region. Having said that, we are very keen
to draw lessons from all of the circumstances that we have in
this disaster and in other ones. One is that, indeed, we need
to be clear on where there are such assets and how we can get
at them as quickly as possible. As I say, I do not think there
was any time lost here. The mechanism that DFID was able to mobilise
with the World Food Programme made it happen, but clearly the
availability of helicopter assets be it in Mozambique, be it in
Northern Afghanistan, be it in the Caribbean is something that
we need with our partners to try and see how we can mobilise them
as quickly as possible.
275. If people are talking about there being
a clearing house for this type of thing, is that essentially what
WFP is?
(Ross Mountain) WFP certainly serves as a clearing
house for aircraft of all kinds and other types of logistics.
276. So were you aware of how many helicopters,
which helicopters there were in Mozambique and for that matter
in Zimbabwe, and were you dealing directly with them or are you
saying you were going via the WFP?
(Ross Mountain) Our role in co-ordination is to deal
with the UN response. OCHA does not set itself up on a white horse
doing everything itself. We work with the country team, we work
with the other agencies, so it is part of the UN response. Indeed,
we worked with them in definition and ensuring that these assets
were brought on line. I hope that is clear. We do not believe
OCHA should do everything in this.
277. I understand that. I guess what I am trying
to clarify is who is responsible, if anyone is responsible, for
identifying where the assets are because it seems there is a somewhat
confused situation, it is not necessarily anyone's fault, at the
moment where there is no clear line of responsibility for who
determines where the assets are.
(Ross Mountain) We do in OCHA have another mechanism
that serves us well in this context which is the Military and
Civil Defence Assets where we have co-operation with governments
through training particularly on how NATO governments interact
with civilians in dealing with national disasters. As it happened
in the case here, one such exercise was being organised with the
United States Airforce. It was foreseen to be held in West Africa
as an exercise. When this occurred we suggested that the US assets
be switched to a real life situation in Mozambique. Indeed, that
was part of the reason for the very significant United States
response where they indeed were very anxious to come in and support.
There is a necessity within the response unit of the UN dealing
with the different arms to identify and fill these people as quickly
as possible and as feasible as possible in conjunction with the
government. We cannot bring in helicopters if the Government does
not want us to bring in helicopters. I am sorry, there is a sovereign
Government which deserves to be respected.
Chairman
278. All we are trying to find out is what were
the requirements, who was asking for them. If the Government of
Mozambique was not asking for them, we need to know that. If they
were asking for them, we need to know that. We then need to know
do you know where to get helicopters quickly? We found in evidence
much to our astonishment that DFID hired two helicopters in Mozambique
during this period. I would have thought somebody somewhere ought
to have knowledge of that and therefore be able to bring them
in if required and somebody obviously did know about the Mozambique
ones because that is what you did. You hired two in Mozambique,
I do not know whether you hired any more and then you hired some
more from South Africa.
(Ross Mountain) If there were two in Mozambique they
must have been South African helicopters.
(Gilbert Greenall) 48 hours before we left there was
an announcement they were coming from South Africa and would be
for hire. I got the impression, which may be completely wrong,
they had just been released from work on floods in South Africa.
Mr Robathan
279. Were they civilian?
(Gilbert Greenall) They were civilian aircraft.
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