Examination of witness (Questions 280
- 299)
TUESDAY 8 JUNE 1999
MR MIKAEL
BARFOD
280. Are there other instances where ECHO or
the EU in general has assisted states indirectly affected by sanctions
apart from the Balkans that you know of?
(Mr Barfod) Yes, the whole Great Lakes region. There
are also cases like that. The countries surrounding the Democratic
Republic of Congo most likely have also been affected by sanctions
against Burundi, in particular Tanzania. The problem is that it
is difficult to say how much is caused by trade that no longer
takes place and how much is caused by refugees who pour over the
borders. We do not make a lot of effort to disentangle those two
effects, we just help with the humanitarian crisis as we see it.
281. Could I come back to something that has
been covered already which was the point of making an assessment
of the impact of sanctions. In the past do you think that we have
failed to consider sufficiently the impact of sanctions on other
states surrounding the target nation?
(Mr Barfod) Yes, I think so, but that again is an
area where you have to distinguish between whether it gives rise
to a humanitarian crisis, in which case we come in, or whether
it is just an economic side effect. In general terms I would say,
yes, we should take that much more into consideration in the design
of good sanctions.
Ann Clwyd
282. In the case of Kosovo itself where there
is a war, how would you be involved in discussions on giving humanitarian
relief to the people still inside Kosovo who might be in hiding,
probably not in their own homes? Were you involved in any way
in the consideration given to it?
(Mr Barfod) Yes. We tried through Greek NGOs who were
allowed access and with the International Committee of the Red
Cross. These are relatively small amounts and small efforts, much,
much lower than we would have wished. We simply have not had access.
Even before the current Kosovo crisis broke out last autumn we
had a situation where security was not assured and we had great
difficulty gaining access. At that time if you set up distribution
centres it could have been very dangerous because if the Kosovos
who were in hiding came down from the hills they could then be
targeted. Likewise relief workers who worked in a situation that
was seen to compromise the efforts of the factions were also endangered
by their own kind. There are lots of issues involved in access
in a situation like that. This is one of the worst worries, access,
humanitarian space. The other main example of that is Eastern
Zaire, the Democratic Republic of Congo, where we still do not
have access. Very often this is combined with the ruler of the
regime who fears the presence of witnesses to human rights atrocities.
In ECHO we have issued a policy statement about the importance
of security of relief workers and humanitarian space and that
is something that we work quite a bit on but, again, that requires
an enormous amount of co-operation from all the services, from
the Member States, to implement these ideas.
283. Have you any direct evidence of the humanitarian
situation inside Kosovo at this moment?
(Mr Barfod) At this moment, I think we have all read
reports from various NGOs, human rights' NGOs, who claim various
levels of atrocities but I think that the bottom line is that
the situation is very severe. In ECHO we have tried something
new in this context here because we have tried to combine humanitarian
aid with the human rights recording of atrocities for the first
time. We think that is very important. For instance, when refugees
come across the border, and they suffer from psycho/social traumas,
and they have to be treated, it makes sense to record what the
cause of the problem is at the same time so that can be used at
the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia
(ICTY) at a later stage. Likewise we are very interested in supporting
the co-ordination of the collection of reports of these atrocities
and we have done that with humanitarian money for the first time.
We do believe that humanitarian aid cannot be cut off from the
root causes of conflict. Humanitarian aid is no longer justified
if you do not think about the causes. If you do not arrange humanitarian
aid in such a way that we are seen to understand the basic human
rights issues and the atrocities that give rise to the crisis,
if we ignore that it is like humanitarian aid is definitely not
smart.
Ms Kingham
284. The Committee has heard in evidence that
Sanctions Committees in the UN which are often responsible for
allowing imports of humanitarian goods and services have become
politicised. We have heard about just one member of a Sanctions
Committee who can put an item on hold and stop that item from
being imported, only that one member can release that item afterwards.
This meant in the case of Iraq at one stage 46 per cent of all
items were put on hold. Have you, in ECHO, experienced any problems
in delivering humanitarian goods to targeted states as a result
of sanctions regimes?
(Mr Barfod) Yes. The Sanctions Committee for Iraq
has given us an enormous amount of problems and to some extent
when the Oil for Food programme was implemented it was because
of the Sanctions Committee system there, it was implemented initially
very slowly. There were very long delays, as you say.
285. Long delays, why, because one member was
blocking?
(Mr Barfod) We heard all kinds of explanations. When
we went to Iraq once we were told it was certain countries that
blocked it because they had their own oil interests and this,
that and the other.
286. Presumably the Committees are held behind
closed doors, are they? You say you heard that was the reasoning,
how open and transparent is it about who voted which way?
(Mr Barfod) I do not know the precise procedures there
but in any case there have been questions raised where individual
countries were said to have blocked procedures because they did
not find a certain product was safe and was not covered and it
could be used for the war effort, for weaponry and these kinds
of arguments. I have heard that several times but I do not have
any specifics that I can quote.
Ann Clwyd
287. Some of those objections might have been
quite legitimate, might they not?
(Mr Barfod) They might have been legitimate, yes.
A lot of what I have heard was, of course, in Iraq from NGOs,
and from the Government, obviously. I would like to say that ECHO's
role has very often been to actually substitute for this slow
process in the sense that when the UN with the "oil for food"
programme could not deliver, we went in to help vulnerable groups,
say, until the processes were cleared and the medicines were put
through the system. Very often the problems arose when it came
to items that could be used for infrastructural things because
that was where we were close to industrial items that could be
used perhaps also for military purposes. As a result of that we
have had to go in and help with spare parts, water and sanitation.
We have indirectly been affected by the slowness of the Sanctions
Committee. In fact the UN has often asked us to complement them
for that reason.
Ms Kingham
288. Can you expand a bit on that? In what way,
because goods have been refused for things like water treatment
or whatever?
(Mr Barfod) Because the throughput through the Sanctions
Committee has been slow, because delays have affected the humanitarian
situation on the ground, we have been asked to go in to help in
particular in the health sector, the water and sanitation sector,
to make sure that people do not suffer while procedures run their
course. Do I make myself reasonably clear?
289. Yes.
(Mr Barfod) That is an important point.
290. Do you have any particular examples of
that?
(Mr Barfod) I would be happy to send you examples
like that. I cannot give them to you off the cuff, apart from
what I said about the health sector and the water and sanitation
sector.
291. In terms of the process by which humanitarian
goods and services are exempted, do you think there is a case
for having a standing list of exempted goods that could be altered
to suit individual cases or do you think the system works adequately
at present?
(Mr Barfod) An astounding yes. That would be a very
good thing to have. It would provide clarity. I said at one stage
that I like sanctions with few provisions which are very clear
and if exemptions are equally clear there would be a major advantage.
If it is the same exemptions list in each case, that means the
international community, we the humanitarians, our individual
desk officers, know the list, know what to expect. I think that
would be very expedient for our work.
292. What kinds of difficulties does that present
you with at present, not having a standardised list?
(Mr Barfod) The best example I can give is the one
we have just been through which is a situation where you argue,
because it is the first time you have seen a list for Iraq, whether
an item is covered or not covered. I believe that many of those
discussions could have been averted if we had a standard list.
293. Are there any mechanisms that are in place
currently to ensure that exemptions for basic foodstuffs and medicines
are respected and that essential food and medical supplies reach
those who need them most?
(Mr Barfod) Sorry, can you say that one more time?
294. Yes. What mechanisms are there at the moment
to ensure that essential foodstuffs and medical equipment actually
get through the system effectively? Do you feel that those mechanisms
are currently in place?
(Mr Barfod) No, I do not feel that is the case. According
to the examples I have quoted to you—Iraq, Sierra Leone
and Haiti—I think very often these mechanisms are not in
place. The monitoring certainly may be done but it is not done
by us. We are not involved in the monitoring. That means that
we very often just have to follow procedures that we know very
little about. The monitoring is something that we only hear about
second or third hand and that is not satisfactory. I do not think
that is the best way to implement exemptions.
295. Do you have your own monitoring process
internally, even if it is a semi-official monitoring process,
to look at things like foodstuffs and medicines? You must have
an idea of how it is staking up.
(Mr Barfod) Officially we are not involved in the
monitoring of sanctions or the exemptions of sanctions but ECHO
itself has a monitoring system. In fact, we have 70 of our own
experts in place in all the various humanitarian crises of the
world. These experts monitor very precisely what happens in a
sanctions system, whether the humanitarian items get through,
whether the needs are covered with what gets through, whether
more is needed. That is one of the reasons why they are there.
I think that system works well for us. We started it a couple
of years after ECHO was created. I think that is a very good thing
to have but I would like to go a bit further, and that is also
what you are suggesting. I would like our experts to be involved
directly in the mechanisms in place, even someone from ECHO head
office could go to the Sanctions Committee in New York, why not?
We know where the shoe pinches I would have thought so why should
we not be involved. Certainly we can also help when it comes to
designing sanctions, as has been said many times now.
Ann Clwyd
296. What is your method of representation to
the Sanctions Committee? Who represents the EU point of view?
(Mr Barfod) ECHO is definitely not involved in the
Sanctions Committee. I am not 100 per cent sure what the composition
is but I believe it consists of UN member states.
297. So collectively you do not know if the
EU as the EU rather than an individual member state actually presents
a point of view to the Sanctions Committee?
(Mr Barfod) I would imagine that the EU countries
in a situation like that would have co-ordination meetings in
New York before meetings of the Sanctions Committee but that I
would have to verify. That is the normal way things work in New
York.
298. How is the Sanctions Committee point of
view communicated to you, through what method?
(Mr Barfod) Basically we are informed on the ground.
The UN co-ordinator in Iraq, say, is fully in the picture. Our
desk officer for Iraq can also contact the people responsible
in New York, the secretariat to the Sanctions Committee, which
I believe he would do. Those would be our sources of information
apart from reading the newspapers.
299. Is there any evidence that the point of
view that ECHO has has ever changed the minds of the Sanctions
Committee on any particular issue?
(Mr Barfod) I wish I could say I could come up with
a sunshine story but no matter how hard I search my mind I cannot
find any.
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