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1. The matter of human rights and equality in Northern Ireland, being a matter relating exclusively to Northern Ireland, be referred to the Northern Ireland Grand Committee;
2. The Committee shall meet at Westminster on Thursday 8th February at 2.30 p.m.; and
3. At that meeting--
(a) the Committee shall take questions for oral answer; and shall then consider the matter of human rights and equality in Northern Ireland, referred to it under paragraph (1) above;
(b) the Chairman shall interrupt proceedings at 5 p.m.; and
(c) at the conclusion of those proceedings a Motion for the adjournment of the Committee may be moved by a Minister of the Crown pursuant to Standing Order No. 116(5) (Northern Ireland Grand Committee (sittings)).--[Mr. Touhig.]
Line 37, before the word 'European' insert the words 'Environmental Audit Committee or with the'.
Line 46, before the word 'European' insert the words 'Environmental Audit Committee or with the'.
Line 48, at the end insert the words:--
'(4A) notwithstanding paragraphs (2) and (4) above, where more than two committees or sub-committees appointed under this order meet concurrently in accordance with paragraph (4)(e) above, the quorum of each such committee or sub-committee shall be two.'-- [Mr. Touhig.]
Mr. Russell Brown (Dumfries): When I raised the vexed issue of the bus employees superannuation trust in February last year, I really believed that, almost a year on, the entire matter would have been drawing to a close. Regrettably, that is not the case. Looking at the previous debate, I smiled ironically to myself at certain comments that were made on that occasion. For example, I said:
I know that, when this matter was last debated, the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions, my hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr. Hill), hoped that any court approval for completion of the distribution of the settlement would be possible by the end of 2000, thereby enabling payments to be made early this year. No doubt, like many right hon. and hon. Members and me, he will be dismayed at the current situation.
Correspondence that I and other Members have received from many of the pensioners who may be entitled to a share of the settlement shows the anger and frustration that they rightly feel about the delay in settling this affair. They are elderly people; many of them are not in the best of health and, as I said in the previous debate, some of them have even passed away, never having received what was rightly theirs. Even the trustees for the two funds in question indicated by way of the information bulletins that are issued from time to time that they hope to complete the process by the early part of this year.
During the previous debate, I explained the two different categories of pensioners: those who remained in the pension funds after privatisation, known as Standard Lifers, and those who transferred out--transferees. I felt at that time that the interests of the two groups would not and could not be best served by one firm of solicitors. I believe that a second firm should be appointed in order to avoid any conflict of interest that may arise. I know
I am aware that some interim payments were made to different categories of pensioners during last year, amounting to a total in excess of £35 million. I would appreciate it if my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary could give some detail of those payments, perhaps with special reference to taxation, which has been one of the problems.
The other main problem has obviously centred on the legal entitlement of certain groups and, in particular, the status of transferees. Standard Life beneficiary representatives are arguing that the transferees are not eligible to receive any surplus. As one might expect, that view is not taken by the transferees, who were told that all fund surplus would go to the National Bus Company. They maintain that they would not have transferred if they had known that that would not happen.
Although all that I have said so far indicates that the pension trustees are responsible for resolving all those matters, I am pleased that the Government have rightly taken a close interest. This debate offers my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary an opportunity to bring the House up to date on the current state of affairs. I hope also that he will give his perspective on why matters have not yet been resolved.
My hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster, Central (Ms Winterton) is disappointed that she cannot be here to participate in the debate. In her absence, I pay tribute to her for her excellent work on this issue and for the support that she has given me. She has passed me a copy of a letter that she received from Jack Gibson, the branch secretary of the Transport and General Workers Union retired members association in Barnsley. The letter is dated 20 December last. She asked me to refer to two ex-work colleagues that Jack mentions in his letter. He wrote:
The Transport and General Workers Union believes that all former National Bus Company workers who contributed to the two funds should benefit from the distribution of the money that the Government returned. That view is based on the fact that when National Bus Company was privatised and the funds were wound up, there was a considerable delay before the Standard Life buy-out was completed. During that period, the work forces in the separate companies were given differing advice about where to transfer their pensions. That advice was based on the knowledge that there was no surplus in the funds--the Government had taken it--and that a better long-term deal might be obtained elsewhere. That applied to workers who had potentially 20 or more working years ahead. Transfer decisions appeared to be taken en bloc and approximately 30 per cent. took that route.
Pensioners are rightly seeking answers to many different questions. All too often, they are, sadly, met with a wall of silence. There is anxiety about the administration costs of the funds and the exact size of the current balances. I am led to believe that, even after interim payments and all other costs, the totals are about the same as were handed over in July 1999. If the Minister can confirm that, all those pensioners would greatly appreciate it.
Does the problem lie with the representative beneficiaries who speak for the Standard Lifers and the transferees? Is it down to their advisers? Is it perhaps due to a simple disagreement about sharing out the settlement? It would be a tragedy if the delay centred around the amount to which the different categories of pensioners were entitled.
I hope that the Under-Secretary can give an assurance that the Government are doing all they can to ensure that all involved parties and interests appreciate the urgency of bringing the tangled and sorry tale to a successful conclusion without further delay.