Examination of Witnesses (Questions 351
- 359)
WEDNESDAY 14 FEBRUARY 2001
MR MARTIN
BACON AND
MR BEN
WEBSTER
Chairman
351. Gentlemen, I welcome you to the third session
of evidence this morning. Please identify yourselves for the record.
(Mr Bacon) I am Martin Bacon, the recently
appointed Chief Executive of the Civic Trust.
(Mr Webster) I am Ben Webster, Policy Officer of the
Civic Trust.
352. Do you want to say anything by way of introduction,
or are you happy to go straight into questions?
(Mr Bacon) The Civic Trust is a national organisation
which represents 800 or so civic societies across the country.
We have been in existence for some 40 years and we have had a
record of campaigning for the maintenance and improvement of urban
spaces and buildings in the public realm.
Miss McIntosh
353. Can the concept of urban renaissance be
achieved without significant improvements to walking?
(Mr Webster) We believe that it is an important prerequisite
to achieving urban renaissance. If one looks at some of the towns
which may exemplify some of those qualities, York, which has already
been mentioned, and other historic places formed around the needs
of pedestrians. There is a mixture of uses. People do not have
to travel very far to access many of the facilities that they
need. If we can implant that form of development in other places
which are more car-dominated that is an important way to facilitate
urban renaissance. In addition, we must work on the basis that
streets are social spaces. One should be able to have a spontaneous
encounter with someone on the street and hear what is being said.
If a street is heavily trafficked life is driven indoors. If one
wants to meet someone it tends to be a planned encounter in the
home or pub. In that way one does not acquaint oneself with strangers,
like a neighbour who has just moved in next door. One would not
chat on the street accidentally, and one would probably not want
to risk inviting an individual to one's home without knowing what
he or she was like. Trust is eroded by the level of traffic. If
one is to have an urban renaissance one needs to encourage families
to live in urban areas. Many families decide to move out the moment
they have children. Therefore, a walking environment that allows
children more freedom will deter parents from taking the decision
automatically to decentralise.
354. Your memorandum says that hostile streets
drive this exchange activity inside so that it becomes more privatised
and exclusive. (I hope that the Conservatives will not be blamed
for privatising such an activity.) I represent part of the city
of York. My constituents tell me that because of pedestrianisation
it is virtually impossible to catch a bus in certain areas to
take them where they want to go because the route is not given
priority. Do you believe that there are other lessons to be learnt
from trying to facilitate walking within urban areas as part of
urban renaissance?
(Mr Bacon) You asked about pedestrianisation previously.
In my experience, the way that one pedestrianises is very much
horses for courses. Many towns and cities that pedestrianise have
an experimental period to see how it settles down. One should
probably review pedestrianisation perhaps 10 years after it has
been introduced, because land use, expectations, practices and
so on change. Therefore, one cannot say that a particular pedestrianised
scheme is fixed for all time. I suspect that when pedestrianisation
was put in 10 years ago the emphasis on public transport in support
of it was not as great as it is now. In historic towns there is
a tremendous conflict between all kinds of activities. As a previous
witness said, it is a question of getting the balance right. One
can do that only through proper consultation and quantification.
355. Does your memorandum suggest that we need
to reallocate space that is currently being occupied by vehicles
to pedestrians?
(Mr Bacon) Yes, in certain areas. We say that for
pedestrians to be able to walk through their towns and cities
there is a need for a really good network of pedestrian routes
which lead into particular spaces. It is often in those particular
spaces—squares and so on—where one needs to take space
from the car in order to allow pedestrians to cross from one space
to another. That is where one needs to give the pedestrian greater
priority. I have recently come to London. The offices of the Civic
Trust are just off Trafalgar Square. One would wish a little more
priority to be given to pedestrians in that square, because to
get round that part of London takes about seven minutes if the
lights are not in one's favour. It is in such public spaces that
we should give greater priority to pedestrians and so allow them
to move quicker.
(Mr Webster) As a first step, before one widens the
pavement, say, it is worth looking at the accumulation of clutter.
Bottlenecks where pedestrians have to pause or step aside to allow
others through may simply be caused by a totally redundant road
sign or street lamp which may be attached to a building rather
than have a column devoted to it. One should do an audit to check
whether there is any superfluous street furniture and then take
it out. If there is still a problem where pedestrians are squeezed
then widen the pavement and reallocate space from the motorist
to the pedestrian.
356. I hope you do not suggest that telephone
kiosks are put on buildings where they are not accessible. Do
you believe car dependency and a higher quality walking environment
can exist together?
(Mr Bacon) I believe that they can. In my experience,
walking is particularly important for distances under one mile,
for example to buy a newspaper, to take children to school, to
get to the station and so on. To say that one can encourage people
to walk six or seven miles to work every day and back is not realistic.
Nowadays, people do not wish to do that for all kinds of reasons.
There can be an impact on car dependency in neighbourhoods particularly
where smaller scale journeys are possible. Beyond that distance
one is looking at other measures: rail, bus and so on, which are
not the remit of the committee.
357. Do you believe that PPG 13 can be helpful
in that regard?
(Mr Webster) Certainly, particularly the demand management
measures included in the draft, such as, for the first time, maximum
rather than minimum parking standards and giving greater weight
to green travel plans. Is rather alarming if, as seems the case,
government is getting cold feet on this. The consultation period
ended 13 months ago. I can think of no other reason why it has
taken such a long time to produce it. The time lag required from
publication of a planning policy guidance note to its appearance
in development plans is years, so we cannot afford to wait.
358. You touched briefly on linking pedestrians
with buses and trains. For example, if it can be given priority
status there is an excellent bus route in York which runs from
the Vale of York (Haxby/Wigginton) through to the hospital, railway
station and theatre. The problem is that the service is completely
unpredictable. As the distance is perhaps seven and eight miles,
which people would not envisage walking, do you think that pressure
should be brought to bear on the local authority to enable schemes
of the kind that you favour to link pedestrianisation with bus
routes and rail transport?
(Mr Bacon) By and large, many local authorities try
to do that. I agree with other speakers that they are very short
of funds to do that, which is a real problem for them. I cannot
speak about York because I do not know it. I return to my original
point: if there is a problem as between a pedestrianised area
and a bus route perhaps there is a need to see whether circumstances
have changed and the priorities between the two also need to change.
The frequency of bus services is totally outside the power of
the local authority; it may depend upon congestion created by
cars and so on. Even the best bus operator cannot legislate for
that.
Mr Blunt
359. I should like to place on record my pleasure
in welcoming Mr Bacon to give evidence to us. About a fortnight
ago he was chief executive of the local authority, 80 per cent
of which is my constituency. It is nice to see Mr Bacon in a new
guise, although he is an unwitting victim of Mr Prescott's reforms
of local authorities. It is the change of organisation from the
committee structure that has led Reigate and Banstead to dispense
with the chief executive. However, our loss is the Civic Trust's
gain. If colleagues forgive me, I should like to focus on Reigate
and Redhill, which Mr Bacon and I both know. In terms of pedestrianisation
and ease of walking, given that you have answered a question about
local authorities and you are now no longer accountable for their
money, what would you do in Reigate and Redhill in order to ease
pedestrianisation?
(Mr Bacon) We have a local planning framework. At
the moment that framework is very much concerned with planning
and development. It is also concerned with the creation of new
roads and other things to go with that kind of development. It
would be very helpful if local plans also had a requirement to
make sure they looked at the whole network of pedestrian routes
that support those land uses. When planning applications came
in there would be a framework for looking at developer contributions
to that network under section 106 and section 278, in the same
way that you can ask for contributions to roads and so on. Sometimes
it is very difficult to get contributions from developers to pedestrianise
networks because there are no approved plans for them, whereas
there are road schemes to which money can be allocated. Over and
above that, I agree with the need to improve awareness in county
surveyor and engineering departments to put walking at the centre
of everything that they do. Often that does not happen because
the legislation is such that highway authorities are concerned
primarily with safety, not promoting change of mode. Therefore,
their money will go into mending potholes and repairing signs,
and it is quite right that that should happen. The moneys available
to change mode are fairly small in terms of the overall highway
budget. That is where the main emphasis needs to be placed. Clearly,
working with the general public and local firms on reducing car
dependency can also help the pedestrian. In Reigate and Banstead
some hard work has been done on green travel plans with local
companies with the aim of reducing car transport to 30 to 40 per
cent of the current level of car journeys within the next three
to four years. There is gradual success in that aim. In doing
that those companies help to promote walking at least within one
to one-and-a-half miles of the office. In order to cater for journeys
over and above that they run subsidised bus travel, company buses,
support rail and so on. That is the main mixture of things that
will happen. But if we can put walking at the centre of the local
planning framework and the allocation of highway funding it will
help the awareness of engineers and the whole thing will be a
virtuous circle.
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