Examination of Witnesses (Questions 173
- 179)
WEDNESDAY 29 NOVEMBER 2000
MR ALISTAIR
SIMPSON, MR
WILLIAM HAY
AND MR
DAVID HOEY
Chairman
173. Mr Simpson, Mr Hay and Mr Hoey, you are
extremely welcome. I apologise for the fact that we slightly delayed
your evidence session. We took evidence from your predecessors
for an hour and a half and, on the principle of the Judgment of
Solomon, we are hoping to take evidence from you for an hour and
a half too. I say that so that we can organise our mutual timetable
so that we get through during the 90-minute period. We will work
to the ground rules we ordinarily work to: if there is anything
you want to gloss, if, having given an answer, you decide you
want to add to it, do not hesitate either to do so orally now
or in writing afterwards, and we will feel free to come back with
supplementary questions in writing if it occurs to us, having
read the transcript, that there is something else we should have
asked. We will try to make the questions follow a logical order
but the questions may therefore come from different quarters of
the room and not necessarily go from person to person. Is there
anything you would like to add in addition to the material you
have already sent us?
(Mr Simpson) No, just that whatever discussion we
have here this morning I think you have already received all the
details.
174. That is grand. Let me ask an extremely
simplistic question first. How many members do the Apprentice
Boys have?
(Mr Simpson) In a round figure, 10,000 members of
the Apprentice Boys.
175. Would you like to say a word about their
geographical diffusion through the Province? In other words, where
do the concentrations occur?
(Mr Simpson) May I be permitted to give you, for a
few minutes, a short history of the Apprentice Boys, to let you
know where we are coming from? In doing that, then I think you
will all understand.
176. Yes. Please feel free to do that. When
I said was there anything you wanted to add, that is what I was
alluding to. If both of us watch the time as you do thatin
other words, the law of reason prevailsthen please do not
hesitate to do that at the beginning of your evidence.
(Mr Simpson) First of all, may I thank you very much
for allowing us to come here this morning to put a case. I appreciate
that you are all very busy men but at the end of the day we feel
that we had no option but to ask to meet with you. In saying that,
I am the Governor of the Apprentice Boys of Derry and have been
for the last seven years. Now the Apprentice Boys of Derry is
an historical organisation, built up and born through the actual
fact of the history of the city of Londonderry itself, the siege
in 1688 to 1689 and because of what happened at that time. The
Apprentice Boys Association was formed in 1714 and has commemorated
the seige of the city up to the present time. We feel that, although
we are a Protestant organisation, no-one fears the existence of
the Apprentice Boys, we are there solely for the one purpose,
and that is, as I say, an historical organisation. Since the organisation
was formed until I took over governorship, it was a sort of closed
shop organisation, where whatever went on behind the closed doors
of the Apprentice Boys Memorial Hall or any other hall connected
with the Apprentice Boys nobody outside the organisation really
knew or understood what it was all about. But when I became Governor
I decided that the best situation would be to have a PR exercise
and let all the people of Londonderry and the whole of Northern
Ireland and the whole of the British Isles get to understand what
the organisation was about. Consequently, up to date, we feel
that, because we have done that, the wider public, both Nationalist
and Protestant, now understand exactly what the Apprentice Boys
Association is all about. Before, we were considered as a triumphalist
organisation. When we walked the city walls in the month of August,
people said we were being triumphalist. The reason why we do that
is because, just immediately after the night of the siege, when
the city was freed, the people of the city who at that time were
inside the city walls during the siege, walked round the walls
to commemorate those who had given their lives during the siege.
Just the same as people today, on 11 November, or the date nearest
11 November, would gather round all the Cenotaphs over the British
Isles to commemorate those who lost their lives in the two World
Wars, immediately after the walking of the walls in August we
go to the Cenotaph in the Diamond, also to remember those out
of our organisation who during the two World Wars gave their lives.
We go to pay tribute to them and also to those who have lost their
lives over the 30 years of Troubles here in Northern Ireland.
We lost a great many of our Association and that is why we go
to the Cenotaph in August. After we go to the Cenotaph, we then
go the Church of Ireland Church, St Columb's Cathedral, where
during the siege it was the only church where the people had their
services. We go there for thanksgivingwe call it a Thanksgiving
Serviceand we go to the cathedral to have a service. Immediately
after the service, we form up and, because of the large numbers
on that daywe have, as I say, roughly 10,000 Apprentice
Boys and we also have on parade anything between 170 and 175 bands,
so you can appreciate those amount of people could not all come
into the city centre at the one timewe have a parade. The
significance of coming over to the city side, going through one
gate of the city walls and coming out of the other gate, has the
significance of the people who were there during the siege. Anything
connected with our organisation is to do with the history of the
city. We have, in the city, the walled city of Londonderry, which
I thinkand I may be a bit biased because I live thereone
of the nicest walled cities in the whole world. I have been in
Chester in England to see the walled city there, I have been in
Limerick to see the walled city there, and nothing, absolutely
nothing, compares with what we have. That is thanks not only to
the Irish Society, who own the walls, but to the Department of
the Environment, who look after it, and also to the amount of
money that the Derry City Council has put in over the last four
years. This is upgrading the city and bringing a lot of tourists
in, which generates employment. I, as Governor, also state that
we are now in the situation wherebecause the Apprentice
Boys have talked to a lot of individual groups and different groups,
residents from the city, businessmen, church men, everyone that
we can talk to we have talked towe feel that the city itself
can generate employment out of our organisation and its pretty
place. We have also made the situation where we have talked to
the Parades Commission, we have talked to anybody who wants to
understand what the organisation is about. There are other Loyalist
organisations who have not done it, but at the end of the day
I just want to make it quite clear that, although we are a Protestant
organisation, we do not try to look down or deteriorate or reject
anyone who has not the same outlook on life as what we have. Is
that sufficient?
(Mr Hay) I just want to follow up very quickly on
what Alistair has said there. I think it is trying to remind the
Committee that everything the Apprentice Boys do, everything they
organise, is in the west bank of the river. The walls are there,
the headquarters are there, the cathedral is there. Everything
the Apprentice Boys organises is on the west bank of the river.
For people to say to us, "You must take it out of the west
bank of the river," people have to remember that this is
just not about a parade either. Although the parade is important
to us, this is about a whole culture, this is about a whole history.
As soon as you remove the parade of the Apprentice Boys out of
the city, and especially the west bank of the river, you remove
a whole culture. The other issue that I think most people need
to realise as well is that there is a small remaining Protestant
community on the west bank of the river, and, as soon as you remove
traditional parades from the west bank of the river, you also
remove that small Protestant community, who totally and absolutely
then lose confidence in living on the west bank of the river.
So it is very important to say that it is just not about a paradealthough
the parade is importantit is about maintaining a culture
in the west bank of the river, because, as Alistair has said very,
very clearly, you have everything relating to the siege there,
so it is important that we maintain the parade through the city
centre. That is vitally important. We are not sitting here knowing
that we have convinced every Nationalist that the way we parade
and why we parade and how we should parade is right, because I
am quite confident that out there, no matter how well we put forward
a case, there are always going to be people who oppose Protestant
culture, Protestant parades, irrespective of what we try and do.
We are not fools. We recognise that, even in our own city. I am
quite convinced that we have convinced certainly the vast majority
of people that the Apprentice Boys parade is important to the
city, it is an important culture, but we also recognise that,
irrespective of what we do in the future or now, there is always
going to be a small element of Nationalists who will continually
oppose Protestant culturecontinually, irrespective of what
we doand I think the Governor would be the first to say
that, no matter what we do in the future, no matter how we move
this whole thing forward. It is the west bank of the river that
is almost 90 per cent Nationalistand we are very conscious
of that as well. I think that is a point that we make very, very
strongly. I mean, I think we have put a case, I think we have
put a very strong case, of why we need to maintain a Protestant
culture on the west bank of the river.
(Mr Simpson) Could I just follow up from Mr Hay? I
live on the west bank of the riverI live on the Protestant
estate, where there is about a 600 population thereand
I happen also to be the chairman of the community association
there, so that, when these parades of the Apprentice Boys are
taking part, I am walking a very tight rope, because I have to
have it in the back of my mind that my own community association
will bear the brunt if anything goes wrong after the parade takes
place. At the end of the day, I have to make sure, for the people
I am living with, that everything will go peacefully.
177. I do not want to cut the thing off but
we have a number of questions to ask which we have to ask in an
hour and half and we do not want to mortgage too much of the time
at the beginning. Mr Hay?
(Mr Hay) I think you were looking for some technical
information on the size and structure of the organisation, which
might be helpful at this point. There are 10,000 members in the
Apprentice Boys: about 7,000 in Northern Ireland itself, about
2,000 in Scotland, and 1,000 in England. Those are very, very
rough, loose numbers. The structure is that the General Committee
is the organisational or central committee of the Apprentice Boys
from which the Governor is elected. That is made up of representatives
from Parent Clubs and Amalgamated Committees. The eight Parent
Clubs of the Apprentice Boys of Derry are the mother clubs, if
you like, of which all Apprentice Boys in all Branch Clubs must
belong to. The Amalgamated Committees are just committees within
the regions or local areas. They get together to help each other
organise for parade days or help each other organise social events
or other events or parades within a particular area. All Apprentice
Boys must be "made-up" within the walls of Londonderry
and that is the responsibility again of the Parent Clubs. Particularly
in December, which is perhaps a smaller parade, that is a parade
for many more Apprentice Boys who are new membersthey enter
the Apprentice Boys at a local level but then they go to Londonderry,
to be "made-up" within the wallsand that is obviously
a very, very important day and an important aspect of the Apprentice
Boys' culture.
Mr Grogan
178. Good morning. Is it fair to sum up the
attitude of the Apprentice Boys thus: that it is opposed in principle
to the concept of a parades commission but it will abide by the
law and respect the Commission's legal authority? If that is a
fair summation, what particular difficulties of principle do you
have with the concept of a parades commission? Because somebody
has to have the power to regulate parades, and, if not the Commission,
how would you suggest parades be regulated?
(Mr Simpson) The governing body of the Apprentice
Boys have always said that we would always meet with the Parades
Commission. We feel that they are the legal body to take the role
of parades in Northern Ireland. That does not say that we agree
wholeheartedly with the decisions that they make but any decision
that they make we have always said that we would keep within the
law. We may not agree with them, but we would always keep within
the law. As far as the Apprentice Boys are concerned, no-one in
our organisation is allowed to go outside the law, it must be
kept within the law. But we feel, basicallyand I am being
very basic herethat the Parades Commission, rather than
a parades commission, has turned out to be a public order commission,
which is not what they were set up for in the first place.
179. Could you just explain the distinction
in your mind?
(Mr Simpson) The Parades Commission was set up to
deal with parades and the last determination that we got for the
parade in the Lower Ormeau was under the Public Order Act that
they were dealing with.
(Mr Hoey) I think the issue with the Parades Commission
is that there is a pattern whereby the central reason for determinations
generally being negative towards our Association is the threat
of public disorder which is never coming from the Apprentice Boys
of Derry. So, in terms of being "public order", there
is a predetermined situation whereby any determination is almost
inevitably going to come down against the Loyal Order on the basis
that there is a threat of disorder from someone, and that is where
that lies. If you look at the various pieces of information that
we have provided, probably for the past two years now you will
see that we have been consistent as well, and that is that if
the Parades Commission is the legal authority it must also be
a responsible authority and work itself within the law. I was
rather surprised, when I sat in on the Select Committee back in
May, when Mr Holland said that he would have a problem with the
Parades Commission with Article 6 of the Human Rights Convention,
which actually is the right to a fair hearing. Again, in some
of the documents with which we have provided you, there is a legal
note of exactly what that means with regard to the Commission.
Certainly from the most recent experience, we would say that our
members would not necessarily receive a fair hearing within a
structured programme. I do not know whether that is incompetence
or resistance, but, whatever it is, that is our real issue, that
it must act responsibly within the law itself.
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