Examination of Witnesses (Questions 200-219)
WEDNESDAY 20 DECEMBER 2000
200. You have only had the contract from April
(Ms Lyner) From April of this year.
201. In the figures you do actually account
for re-entry work in 1998 through 1999?
(Ms Lyner) Yes, it was limited. The example that I
cited to you there about the man with the alcohol problem, those
are the sorts of issues which are there. There may be situations
also where there is a family feud ongoing, somebody has been out
because of that and they come back in because that situation has
202. This has got nothing to do with paramilitary
intimidation, this sort of stuff? This is the kind of thing which
happens in families in communities anywhere?
(Ms Lyner) In terms of where we have been working
at this stage that is largely accurate.
203. Can I ask one last question, Chairman.
I am interestedand I do not know the answer so I will be
interested to know if you dowhen I look at your figures
what I see between 1994 and up to October this year is a relentless
rise in the referrals to your organisation. If we look at this
question of people actually being forced out of their area, forced
to leave, what we see is a dramatic decline from about 60 per
cent in 1995 down to 17 per cent last year. Is that indicative
of the outstanding success of your work or is that a sign that
this is a declining problem?
(Mr Conway) Is there a choice?
Mr McCabe: Is there another explanation? I am
serious. It is stark, the incredible rise, 200 to just over 500
this year, 624 referrals last year, people actually being forced
out of the area dropping 60 per cent, 40 per cent, 30 per cent,
25, 17 per cent of your referrals so people are not being forced
out of their area in anything like the same numbers if your figures
are accurate. I am just wondering what is happening.
Chairman: Have you taken the line saying "left
Mr McCabe: Yes, I have used those percentages
by adding together, Chairman, those who have had to leave their
immediate area, the city or the country.
204. It was the interest of the shorthand writer
I was taking into account.
(Ms Lyner) Can you refer us to which page?
Mr McCabe: Certainly. I was looking firstly
at the number of referrals on page three to your organisation
and then I was looking at the client outcome figure on page five.
If I add together "LHA", "left country" and
"left city", then as I say the pattern seems to be that
the percentage of your referrals being forced to leave the area
is steadily declining but the number of referrals is steadily
rising. I am wondering what sense you make of that?
Chairman: Can I clarify again, you have taken
three lines. You have taken "left area", "left
country" and "left city"?
Mr McCabe: Yes.
Chairman: It might be helpful if you read into
the record your percentage figures for the five years.
205. Chairman, certainly I will happily do that.
My rough calculation would suggest that in 1995 about 60 per cent
of the referrals had to leave, in 1996 about 40 per cent, in 1997
about 30, 1998 about 25 and 1999 about 17. I am quite happy to
have those figures checked. It has been quite a quick calculation.
I wondered if that was a perception you shared and if you had
any explanation for it?
(Ms Lyner) It is not. Now you have raised it we will
go back ourselves and be sure about the figures and we will come
back to you with some sort of view on that.
Mr McCabe: I would be really grateful. Thank
you very much.
206. I think the figures will need revisiting.
(Ms Lyner) Indeed.
207. My immediate reaction to your 25 per cent
figure is it does not look right against the particular figures
for that year. It is a product of the particular way in which
we are doing this.
(Ms Lyner) Yes.
208. We can make sure we get the calculated
(Ms Lyner) Yes.
209. I just want to point out that we need to
be aware that the client outcome figures went beyond page five
to page six and some of the explanation as to what has been occurring
was presumably that it was decided that in numbers of those areas
no threat existed.
(Ms Lyner) Absolutely.
210. Or there had been some rumour about the
threat being lifted.
(Ms Lyner) Yes. Another issue would be the fact of
recognising in the early years we had a lot to learn. The verification
process or the clarification process is more swift in coming back
to us and is more useful than it might have been in the past.
There are a number of issues but I think it will be useful for
us to look at that and come back to you.
Chairman: Mr Barnes you came in at exactly the
211. You will aware that we interviewed the
Maranatha Community. What sort of links does your organisation
have with them?
(Ms Lyner) We have actually had really relatively
little links with the Maranatha Community over the years. In the
context of the overall work that we have been doing, we would
talk about something of the order of 40 people a year who might
have been moving from Northern Ireland in the direction of the
UK. That would be a smallish piece of work. Where those people
choose to locate in terms of where it is possible for them to
be able to access public housing is connected to two factors:
evidence that a threat existed in their case and where they have
local family roots. That is where people are likely to locate
to. Our connection with Maranatha Community has critically been
when we were putting people in the Manchester area and as public
housing has been soaked up in that area that has become less and
less. While we have had some and are aware of them and have had
ongoing discussions with them, the actual number of referrals
would be relatively small.
212. There would only be a small number of referrals
(Ms Lyner) Yes.
213. Out of the number of people they are claiming
that they are dealing with and responding about.
(Ms Lyner) Who come from us.
214. A great deal of what they are in to
(Ms Lyner)does not emerge from our work.
215.does not emerge from your connections
or in terms of your links. What about links with other groups?
There was Families Against Intimidation and Terror and Families
Against Intimidation and Terror was probably one of the leading
bodies to flag up the problems about exiles. When I first met
a group from that organisation they were over in this country,
Protestants and Catholics, and they were dealing with people in
exile and looking for escape routes and accommodation in this
country. Do you have any considerable links with them?
(Mr Conway) We established protocols with FAIT, Families
Against Intimidation and Terror, at a very early stage. There
was an agreement that we would not deal with people that they
were, if you like, showcasing or had high media profile because
we did not have the resources to deal with that. Those individuals,
as it transpired, and it became apparent right from the start,
required a lot of movement and more movement requires more resources
and more costs. At the time we did not have those resources, so
we made it very clear to Families Against Intimidation and Terror
that we would not become involved with those particular cases.
However, for individuals and families who came to FAIT who did
not want that public profile, they referred those cases generally
on to our ourselves.
216. What would your assessment be of the work
that FAIT did?
(Mr Conway) We would not have a view on that.
217. It is just that they have been under some
heavy criticism because of Vincent McKenna. Are there many others
that you would have dealings with in that organisation?
(Mr Conway) We have the protocols that we did with
FAIT. Because we are not party to the internal workings of any
organisation, we are aware of what is in the public domain, but
we have our own work to do and we are quite specific about that.
FAITVincent McKennahave other pieces of work to
do which do not really conflict with our work, so we have no comment
to make on that.
(Ms Lyner) In reference to that, while there may have
been in the past numbers of organisations who were involved in
this area of work, beyond ourselves we are only aware of two other
voluntary organisations who have a keen interest in this area
of work, victim support, and they would be dealing with somewhere
between 20 and 30 cases a year. The Peace People would still have
a role dealing with maybe two or three cases a year. Those at
this stage would be the other players that we are aware of networking
with in terms of people moving.
218. Were what you described as "protocols"
established with any of these other organisations, or does it
just operate with FAIT?
(Mr Conway) I am sorry?
219. You mentioned in relation to FAIT that
you had protocols you had established with them, I am wondering
whether any of the other organisations you have mentioned are
in a similar position?
(Mr Conway) We are not talking about something that
is written down, there is no contract that exists. It involved
a conversation, or a series of conversations, between myself and
representatives from FAIT. We are talking about the early 1991
period. I was very, very explicit that we would not take the individuals
that we could not be responsible for, in a sense, in relation
to their movement and what had to happen there, what did happen
there. There are no protocols, if you like. We will take referrals
directly from anybody with the exception of paramilitaries, political
parties and security forces.