Examination of Witness (Questions 1120
- 1139)
WEDNESDAY 7 MARCH 2001
LORD FALCONER
OF THOROTON,
QC
1120. I am glad you said that because that brings
me to the next point and it relates to capacity and accountability.
What the Government said in the Green Paper on Local Government
was that local government should become community leaders.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Yes.
1121. Now it seems to me there is capacity within
the whole local authority—as opposed to the sections of
that authority which are deprived—which has got the capacity
to deal with those services and there is the clear accountability
role there. It does not seem to me that the way that Central Government
funds local government joins up those needs within those communities.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) You mean the way it funds—
1122. Through the SSA system. I appreciate there
is an ongoing examination of that, but you get many authorities
which have quite deprived areas and yet which do not get anywhere
near the same amount of money from the SSA system as other authorities
which do not show the same level of deprivation. There is a problem
there of part financing specific programmes through mainstream
local government financing; if you deliver monies for programmes,
because quite a lot of those programmes are 90 per cent, 75 per
cent funded and therefore require the balance of funding from
the mainstream of the local authority financial settlement.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Or sometimes from other
statutory agencies.
1123. I appreciate that, yes. That then leads
you to the problem of how do you continue to provide the services
for the other services which are not targeted on deprived areas?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Sure.
1124. What happens is those communities feel
much more left out of it and resentful.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Yes. How do we deal with
that is the question?
1125. Yes, that is right.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) If you have brought your
mainstream programme up to a higher standard than at present in
relation to deprived areas that will make some contribution to
that. The other way, obviously, and this is not—
1126. That is not what is happening at the moment.
What is happening at the moment is funding for those deprived
areas is having to take money from the other mainstream areas,
because there are not the sufficient additional monies going into
the area to be able to combat deprivation and maintain and improve
the services elsewhere.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) I accept that is not happening
at the moment but in relation to mainstream programmes, one of
the consequences of the spending review in the middle of last
year was that mainstream programmes would have to improve from
their own resources the service they provide in relation, for
example, to health and education in deprived areas, hopefully
on the basis of not taking the money from the undeprived areas.
It seems to me that comes from the Government intervention in
deprived areas cross-cutting review in the middle of last year.
That, although it is not happening at the moment, to some extent
meets the point that you are making so that we share the same
aspiration there and the Government has done something to try
and achieve it.
1127. I look forward to success there.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Yes.
1128. Can I just go on to another issue, about
letting go. One of the problems with Central Government is that
ministers want to make sure that they get the credit for whatever
happens and civil servants want to get credit for putting that
programme in. The reality is that it is only on the ground where
that success you are achieving will actually happen.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Sure.
1129. The best way of doing that is what you
said, to have the capacity within the community so they can make
those achievements.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Yes.
1130. That stretching of the dichotomy between
those two is a major problem.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) You mean between Central
Government's desire to be—
1131.—wanting to hang on and local communities
being the drivers to making the achievements we want.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Yes.
1132. Now, I think central government has got
to recognise that and do an awful lot more letting go than has
happened up to now and I do not just mean politicians, I mean
the whole administration, Whitehall as well.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Yes. I think there is
a considerable amount in what you say in relation to that. The
nature of our democracy is bound to lead, is it not, to the sorts
of pressures on the way that Central Government operates. Quite
rightly, there is an electoral cycle of four or five years then
Central Government, whichever Government is in power, has got
to be active and be seen to be doing things. What is more, the
electoral cycle and changes in Government provide an impetus for
real change so without it you would not get pressure from the
centre which is appropriate from time to time to effect real change.
But things that transform deprived communities over the long term
tend to be much more gradual and tend to much slower processes
about capacity building, about reviving economies over a period
of time and about reviving people's self-esteem over a long period
of time which quite frequently has nothing whatsoever to do with
individual programmes.
Mr Trend
1133. In the spirit of Fawlty Towers I
will try hard not to mention the Dome. I still find it hard to
understand quite what the Unit is supposed to do. You mentioned
earlier that it was your intention to bite a certain part of the
cycle. What does that mean? Can we start by asking what staff
do you have? What is your budget? How do you get it?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) The Government Offices
have a budget of I think £80 million. The Unit itself has
a budget of six million pounds and has a staff of 50. Let me give
you an example of the things it does. One of the problems, and
this is the most obvious problem, too many initiatives with too
many application forms and too much monitoring. One thing they
have achieved is they have persuaded a number of departments with
initiatives to merge them into existing initiatives so that instead
of the people on the ground having to apply for three lots of
packets of money, it is just one. It is that sort of thing. It
lacks high profile sexiness but it is that sort of cultural change
where people within Central Government look to see "Can I
join in with somebody else's arrangements? How do I make it easier
to deliver on the ground?" that is the job of the Unit.
1134. You are more likely to be approached by
somebody from Whitehall than say by somebody from one of the regional
offices, Government Offices saying "Can you give us a hand
with this?"
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Our role is to be proactive
in Central Government to ensure that the burden of initiatives
is kept to a minimum as far as the outside world is concerned.
Our role is also to develop the role of the Government Offices
as somebody who in service delivery terms is able to try to co-ordinate
what Central Government is doing.
1135. Do you actually have any formal power
over any of these organisations?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) I have no formal power—
1136. As Minister?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) No I have no formal power
over the departments delivering health or delivering education
or delivering local authority activity. My only power ministerially
is as the minister responsible day to day for the Regional Co-ordination
Unit. Picking up the Chairman's point, in a sense his question
was do all these new initiatives have to go through the Unit,
answer "Yes, they do". The only power ultimately will
be if one actually said no to a particular initiative.
1137. When will that happen?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) I do not know.
1138. Does the Unit have regional offices or
is it all based in Whitehall?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) The Regional Co-ordination
Unit is based entirely in Whitehall. The Government Offices, obviously,
are based at regional level.
1139. Do all the people working in it sit together?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) They all sit together
in Riverwalk House just on the river. They are in the same building
as the Government Office for London.
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