Examination of Witness (Questions 1160
- 1179)
WEDNESDAY 7 MARCH 2001
LORD FALCONER
OF THOROTON,
QC
1160. The centre may well be the centre of power.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) I am not running away
from that conclusion but looking at it in organisation of Government
terms what you are trying to do is put into the system pressures
for a holistic approach rather than simply for achieving individual
departmental goals. If you look at the way the Government has
developed—this is the process—the Regional Co-ordination
Unit, the Social Exclusion Unit, the Neighbourhood Renewal Unit,
these are all good pressures for a more holistic approach.
Chairman
1161. Just on this, I think it would be very
useful to have your view on it. You talk about countervailing
pressures. Is your view that the countervailing pressures we have
now developed and of which we are now at one, is this as far as
we can take such countervailing pressures or is it simply the
beginning of something that is going to be extended and needs
to be extended?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) I do not think we know
how the countervailing pressures have worked or not. For example,
in relation to deprived areas we have not seen how the countervailing
pressures have operated on health or education or crime prevention
yet because they have not been in place for long enough. We have
not seen how Government intervention in deprived areas, the policy
emerging from the spending review, has actually worked. The answer
is I do not know. We have put these pressures in place but if,
at the end of the day, health and education provision still remains
focused on average rather than making special provision for deprived
areas it will not have worked. I do not know, I think you have
to treat it as work in progress that is evolutionary. If one discovers
in three or four years' time that floor targets are being met,
if you discover in three or four years' time there has been a
genuine streamlining of the number of initiatives coming out and
the way their bureaucracy works is much better if you are on the
ground; if you genuinely see community capacity building then
I think you would think that the pressures have worked. I am not
in a position to say whether they will or whether they will not
because I do not think they have been in place for long enough.
1162. Is not one countervailing pressure that
is needed one that countervails against the Treasury? The Treasury
has been a big driver of the whole public service programme locked
in through the PSAs. Is it not rather odd, in a way, that the
Treasury should be the source of that concerted pressure across
Government coming from a Treasury perspective and that some kind
of countervailing pressure and a resource centre of countervailing
pressure should have been developed to withstand that and offset
it?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) The Treasury in one sense
is always a pressure for a more holistic approach. I do not mean
that as a joke.
1163. No. No.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Holistic, I do not mean
by that their lack of expenditure of money, I mean, for example,
it is the spending review which produced the Government intervention
in deprived areas approach which means that for deprived areas
the provision of mainstream services has got to be brought up
to something where you are not far away from the average. That
is a more holistic approach. I am not quite sure I have adequately
answered or followed your question.
Chairman: No, I think we have had a good exchange.
David Lepper.
Mr Lepper
1164. I suppose I am pursuing the same issue
in a way here. A phrase you used earlier was, approvingly maybe,
a strong centre within Central Government.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Yes.
1165. The Reaching Out document talked
about changes at Whitehall.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Yes.
1166. Can you just sketch in for us how far
some of those changes have gone? For instance, the document talked
about a new Unit, your Unit I take it, superseding the Government
Office Management Board.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Yes.
1167. The Government Office Central Unit and
Inter-Departmental Support Unit for ABIs, that process has now
happened?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) That process has now happened.
There was a board of three departments: DTI, DETR and DfEE that
supervised the management of the Government Offices. I am sure
that when you went to the North East you would have seen there
was quite a lot of DETR, DTI and DfEE people. What you do not
want is the Government Office simply to be perceived to be a creature
of three departments. In order for it to be effective you want
it to be the voice of as many delivery departments as possible.
Hopefully, as time goes on, the management will not just be the
managers of the RCU, which is cross-governmental, but you will
see more departments represented in the Government Offices. So
that process has gone on. The area based initiative bit of Government
is now in the RCU. The Government Office Co-ordination Unit, I
think it was called before—
1168. Management Board.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) No, Government Office
Co-ordination Unit, is now in the RCU. The process has gone through.
The old management of Government Offices has gone, it has now
been replaced by the RCU which is cross-governmental and so, equally,
dealing with the area based initiatives has been brought into
the RCU. So we have dealt with the processes of it but that is
only a beginning.
Mr Lepper: I am not clear how far that process
of change had already gone. I have jotted down the programmes
that are working in my own constituency, which is a long list.
I will not read it out because some other Members might be envious
of the amount of stuff we are getting.
Mr Lammy: I doubt it.
Mr Lepper
1169. So far as I recall, the first support
that we started to get in my constituency of Brighton from anything
was actually not from Central Government here but from Europe
via Urban Funding and, prior to that, Interreg Funding. I want
to talk about UK Central Government funding but in some regions
European funding is perhaps the cornerstone of what is going on.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Yes.
1170. Can you see ways of somehow integrating
what is happening there with the work of your Unit?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Yes, I agree with that.
If you talk to Government Offices for the regions, not all but
some, they exactly make the point that you have made, that European
funding can be more important than Central Government funding.
The obtaining of European funding is made very much easier regionally
and sub-regionally if the region, or players in the region, have
a better idea of what they can get, which in part very frequently
means what matched funds they have got available to them and what
other players in the forest are doing. There is certainly a role
for the Government Offices, which they undertake in certain regions,
in assisting the applications that are made and the monitoring
of European Union funding. That is an important role for the Government
Offices.
1171. Is what is now in place a structure which
would be very helpful to have in place if we eventually have regional
government in England?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) It is neutral as far as
regional government is concerned. Whatever steps are taken towards
regional government you need a process and a mechanism by which
Central Government policy and Central Government delivery is properly
co-ordinated and made more effective in the regions because there
is not going to be no Central Government activity in the regions.
Whatever model you have for regional government you need a well
co-ordinated proper co-ordinator of Central Government in the
regions. I have slightly avoided that one.
1172. So it could be helpful if we ever take
that future step but, on the other hand, it is a structure that
is useful to have in place anyway?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Exactly, and that you
are going to need come what may.
Mr Turner
1173. What influence do you have on Scotland?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Me personally? None whatsoever.
1174. If we are going to have regional government
and devolution, then what is your role?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) I have got no role in
relation to the policy for regional government. The Government
Offices are only in relation to England, as it happens. As far
as area based initiatives are concerned, I think they have all
been for England and Wales since the Regional Co-ordination Unit
was set up.
1175. I just want to make the point that if
you have regional government, and regional government which is
fairly strongly devolved, then your role is going to be that much
less because if devolution means anything then it means that much
more of the decision will be taken at a devolved level.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Sure. I would have thought,
whatever devolution arrangements you make for the regions, there
would still be Central Government policies involving expenditure
of money, some of that expenditure of money will be on an area
basis, there will still be need for local partnerships, etc.,
and you would need a voice in the regions to co-ordinate that
for Central Government.
Mr Turner: I suspect that I have just discovered
another tension.
Mr Lepper
1176. Can I just ask one final thing, Chairman.
We may or we may not have regional government, but within the
system as it exists at the moment, do you see any stronger role
for the voluntary regional assemblies? My impression is that they
are nice things to have but nobody really knows much about what
they are doing and their influence is probably not very strong
and not very great.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Where I have seen them
in action is in their interaction with the RDAs and in every case
in every region they have debated and approved the economic strategy
of the RDAs. I am quite loath to get into the area of regional
chambers, it is more about regional policy than the role of the
Government Offices.
Mr Lepper: All right.
Mr Lammy
1177. I did not go to Newcastle but obviously,
representing Tottenham, some of the things you have been talking
about interest me a great deal. You in a sense are charged with
making Government work better. I want to examine the relationship
between Central Government and local government and how far you
see your remit as stretching through to local government, so it
is not just government, it is governance in a sense.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Yes.
1178. How do you think that some of what you
have been doing affects the relationship between poor local authorities
and local people themselves?
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) "Poor" meaning
poor quality?
1179. Yes.
(Lord Falconer of Thoroton) Sorry, can you repeat
the question?
| 
