Annex 4B
Transcript of conversation between The
Sunday Telegraph and Mr Bakshish Attwal, 18 March 2000
Transcript of taped telephone interview with
Bakshish Attwal on Saturday 18 March 2000 at 8 am.
Interview carried out by Chris Hastings.
NB: This conversation was one of a number
which followed a face to face meeting with Mr Attwal in Leicester.
During this meeting (which was not taped) Mr Attwal told Rajeev
Syal and Chris Hastings he had made a series of cheque payments
to Keith Vaz MP which were collected by his mother. He insisted
that the cheques were written out in Mr Vaz's name. This meeting
took place in the afternoon of Thursday 2 March 2000.
He repeatedly asked for this information to
be kept out of any article and said he would deny the payments
if he was ever approached about them.
The conversation over the telephone went as
follows.
CH: I understand the Commissioner for Standards
has contacted a number of people in London and Leicester as part
of her investigation into Mr Vaz.
BA: So far I have not had anything from
anybody. You have just given me this news.
CH: I don't know either. I am just ringing
around. If you haven't heard you haven't heard.
BA: No.
CH: Have you picked up the fact that somebody
else might have heard?
BA: Nobody has rang me at all about this.
I have not heard anything.
CH: I think we will do a story about the
fact that a number of people have been contacted. I remember when
Rajeev and I came to see you we were speaking about payments to
Mr Vaz. You did say you made a number of payments.
BA: No, I didn't make payments.
CH: You did sir. You did actually say that.
I remember it quite clearly. I have got it in my notes. You categorically
said you wrote out a number of cheques personally to Mr Vaz not
to anyone else to Mr Vaz.
BA: Ums.
CH: And actually handed them over to his
money. You remember that don't you.
BA: Coughs nervously. I didn't make any
number of payments to him.
CH: You made one.
BA: I made one yes.
CH: One payment to him? We are not going
to do anything to offend you. We are not going to quote you. All
you have done is make a payment to a member of parliament.
BA: Actually, I have checked my records
that payment I made was one cheque and it was made to the Labour
Party through Mr Vaz.
CH: You told me that you had written the
cheque to Mr Vaz?
BA: It was given to Mr Vaz. But it was for
the Labour Party. It is written in the books. It was a donation
to the Labour Party.
CH: Sir, you told us you made a number of
payments. I am willing to except your memory may have changed
and you now remember it's one. But you were adamant those payments
were to Mr Vaz. You actually said yourself his mother came around
to the factory.
BA: She picked up the cheque that's it.
BA: I have a written note of the conversation,
you said don't speak to me about that bloody man. His mother used
to come around to the factory all the time begging for money.
I must have given out four or five cheques. One for a thousand
pounds others for other amounts. I can show you the records. We
keep records. They were for Vaz personally. I remember once she
came into the office knelt down in front of me and said thank
you. I said what are you doing. I am not a God or anything like
that. She said thank you for getting Keith elected we owe it to
you.
BA: Chris, I have got in the records and
one payment was for a cheque and issued on that stub that this
was a donation to the Labour Party and the cheque was I think
was in the name of Mr Vaz.
CH: The cheque was made out to Mr Vaz but
you understood it was going to the Labour Party?
BA: It was written there on the stub. We
have got a record.
CH: You told Rajeev and I that the cheques
were written to Mr Vaz.
BA: Not cheques one cheque. This is seven
or eight years ago, how can I remember?
CH: There is nothing wrong with writing
a cheque out to Mr Vaz. The argument is whether Mr Vaz should
have registered it in the register of members interests. That
is not your problem.
CH: I just want to be absolutely sure there
was only one cheque.
BA: One cheque only.
CH: And that was written to Mr Vaz?
BA: Yes it was written to Mr Vaz but on
the counterfoil its already written that it was a donation to
the Labour Party.
CH: Yes I know but you wrote it to Mr Vaz.
BA: Yes.
CH: It was actually written to Mr Vaz although
you understood it was a donation for the Labour Party.
BA: Yes.
CH: And you understood his mother came to
collect it.
BA: Yes.
CH: If you get a letter from the Commissioner
and I know she has written to other people in Leicester. And I
can assure you that's not through any intervention on our part
but obviously rumours are flying around all over the place. If
she writes to you saying have you given a payment would you be
honest and upfront about that.
BA: I am going to tell her the truth.
CH: Because you have been so upfront with
me and because you have admitted this one cheque payable directly
to Keith Vaz. I am going to ask the editor if you can keep your
name out of the newspaper.
BA: I don't want my name in the paper.
CH: I am going to tell the editor Mr Attwal
has admitted one cheque payment to Mr Vaz. Written a cheque to
Mr Vaz and it was for a thousand pounds no more than that.
BA: It was a thousand pounds.
CH: What I am going to do is speak to the
editor. He is a decent man and knows how difficult this situation
is. Not to put your name in. I will ring you back in one hour.
BA: Is there anybody else talking to the
papers.
CH: I understand there are dozens and dozens
of people I know have to ring who have received a letter from
the Commissioner.
BA: Where will she get my name. She doesn't
know me.
CH: I know the Conservative Party in Leicester
is compiling its own dossier.
BA: Oh I see.
CH: They have gone around as far as I know.
Rajeev and I are not happy that they have done this. Obviously
we were looking at this issue long term. Now we are being forced
to speed up. Anyway that is not your problem. Because it's not
an investigation about Bakshish Atwall is it? It is an investigation
about Keith Vaz? You are completely innocent.
BA: I asked my accountant before I gave
the cheque if I can give to political parties.
CH: Yes and you wrote the cheque out to
Keith. You wrote the cheque out payable to Keith Vaz. That is
fine. What Keith Vaz has to do because the cheque was made payable
to him is declare in the register I have received payment from
the following people.
BA: Murmurs agreement.
CH: And we know that he hasn't done that.
BA: Murmurs agreement.
CH: That is a serious offence for a member
of parliament. It is not a criminal offence and he can't be arrested
or anything like that.
BA: Yes.
CH: There is no bribery no-one is saying
you got anything out of your £1,000 payment or anything like
that.
BA: Murmurs agreement.
CH: You are not at the centre of any investigation.
BA: Murmurs agreement.
CH: Neither is anyone else in Leicester.
I keep stressing this to people. I know there are other businessmen
in Leicester who have given similar payments.
BA: Murmurs agreement.
CH: I can only assume that the conservatives
or who ever has passed on this information has passed on their
names too.
BA: Agrees.
CH: I am going to do a quick ring round
and I am going to ring you back sir.
BA: But to please keep my name out.
CH: Yes. I am going to say to the editor
that you have been up front about the £1,000 payment we should
keep your name out.
BA: If the Commissioner writes to me I can
only give the right answer.
CH: No of course. Sir you must. Everyone
tells me even before we began talking to people in Leicester about
payments that you are a decent man. You are a well respected member
of the community. There is no doubt in my mind you will tell the
truth. Everyone else thinks that. This is not an investigation
about your character. As far as Rajeev and I know your character
is beyond reproach. Everybody speaks highly of you. So you should
feel proud. Obviously local business people do feel the need to
support the local MP with personal payments.
BA: Yes.
CH: There is nothing wrong with that. He
must put them in that register.
BA: Yes.
CH: Or else we get to a situation like this.
Where people are going all over the place.
CH: Leave all this with me.
BA: Yes.
CH: I am going to ring you back in an hour
and let you know what we are doing.
BA: Is this going to be printed tomorrow.
CH: We are going to run a story tomorrow
sir. May main priority is to speak to the editor and say Mr Attwall
would rather his name not be in the paper.
BA: Yes.
CH: I am happy to do that.
BA: Thank you.
CH: I am going to ring you straight back.
Bless you sir. Thanks a lot.
Second Conversation with Bakshish Attwall
BA: Hello.
CH: Mr Atwall its Chris again.
BA: Yes Chris.
CH: Let me tell you exactly what we are
going to be doing. We are going to be running a story on the fact
that a number of letters have gone out to people in London, Leicester
and elsewhere.
BA: Yes. You are mentioning the letters?
CH: We are going to mention the letters.
BA: I see.
CH: I have now told the editor we shouldn't
name you.
BA: I see.
CH: And he is fine about that. You are not
going to be named in the newspaper.
BA: Thank you.
CH: Let me tell you exactly what we are
doing. We are writing a story about the fact that the commissioner
is still investigating the issue about whether the payments should
be registered in the register of members interests.
I am not going to mention you by name. But I
am going to say a number of businessmen in Leicester and London
have received letters asking them if they have ever made any payments
to Mr Vaz.
BA: Yes.
CH: Instead of naming you. I am going to
say one businessman who was contacted by the Commissioner had
told the Sunday Telegraph he did make a payment of £1,000
by cheque to Mr Vaz personally. I am not going to name you.
BA: Yes. It was a donation to the Labour
Party.
CH: Let us get this right so we both know
what we are talking about. The cheque was written out to Mr Vaz.
Am I right in that?
BA: It was made out to Mr Vaz.
CH: It was made out to Mr Vaz but you in
your mind were giving it to Labour.
BA: Not in my mind. You know the stub.
CH: On the stub you have got donations to
Labour? So what I am going to put is that one businessman who
we think is going to be contacted by the Commissioner. Have you
had a letter from her?
BA: I haven't been to the office today.
I didn't have it up until yesterday. I may have got it today.
I am going to tell her what I told you.
That is why I checked the records. So that if
you were going to come to me again I could tell you exactly what
happened.
CH: I just want to assure you your name
is not going to appear in the newspaper.
BA: If the Commissioner wrote me a letter
I am just going to tell her the truth.
CH: I know you will because everyone says
that you are that sort of person.
All you have done is literally took out your
cheque book written out a cheque for £1,000.
BA: Yes.
CH: You have written that personally to
Mr Keith Vaz.
BA: Yes.
CH: And you have handed it over.
BA: You will mention that it was made out
as a donation to the Labour party.
But the point is. Mr Vaz may have told you that.
But we don't know what he has done with the cheque to be fair
to everyone. You just wrote out the cheque to him.
BA: I wrote the cheque to him. I did.
CH: He may have put it in the Labour Party
fund. He may have spent it on a holiday to Majorca. I haven't
a clue what he has done with it?
BA: As far as I am concerned it was made
out to the Labour Party but it was made out to him.
CH: What did it say? Can you remember?
BA: Pardon.
CH: What did it say? It just said to Keith
Vaz basically?
BA. Yes, The cheque was made into the name
of Mr Keith Vaz. But on the record I keep on the counterfoil of
the cheque it is written to the Labour Party.
CH: But that is because it is.
BA: I before I did that I asked my accountant
if it was alright to donate to political party. He said yes.
CH: It is absolutely fine.
BA: But if as you say the Commissioner is
going to write to these people. If I get her letter I am just
going to accept that. I am going to admit it and tell her the
facts.
CH: That is exactly what we are going to
say in the paper but I am not going to name you. I am just going
to say that the businessman who the Sunday Telegraph has
decided not to name last night said if I am contacted by the Commissioner
about this matter I will tell her the truth. I paid £1,000
in a cheque to Mr Vaz.
BA: Yes.
CH: That is it copper bottomed.
BA: If you write at the same time that I
gave a £1,000 cheque made out to Mr Vaz as a donation to
the Labour Party.
CH: You thought it was a donation to the
Labour Party?
BA: Well not thought. But written on cheque
stubs.
CH: The cheque is to Mr Vaz but you on the
stubs have written donation to the Labour party?
BA: Yes. It was a donation to the Labour
party. But I am going to write to the Commissioner if I get a
letter that a cheque was made out to Mr Vaz. It was a donation
of £1,000 for the Labour Party through Mr Vaz.
CH: Yes.
BA: This is what I intend to write?
CH: Exactly that.
BA: If I get the letter as you say or whether
it is in the post.
CH: Let me advise you. You have been completely
upfront with me. If you are upfront with her. I don't think you
have anything to worry about. If you get the letter and I don't
know if you are going to get the letter. If you just tell her
that the cheque was payable for £1,000 personally to Mr Vaz
that is all she wants to hear from you.
In your paper you should do it the way that
I am telling you. That a donation of £1,000 was made to the
Labour Party through Mr Vaz.
CH: But it can't sir. Its not your fault.
But if you make a cheque payable to Mr Vaz that has obviously
gone into Mr Vaz's bank account.
BA: Yes. He can countersign it can't he?
CH: Whatever. Well lets see what he says.
BA: Well you can say that it was from me
and it was for the Labour Party.
CH: You did mean it for the Labour Party
and for all I know it may have gone to the Labour party. But the
point is its written out to him as a cheque and that's for him
to say where it went. For all I know he may have countersigned
it and put it straight into the local Labour Party. That's for
him to answer. Not you to worry about. You are just a local businessman
who has made a donation.
BA: If the Commissioner asks me to send
her a photocopy about the counterfoil I have got it is written
there on that one.
CH: Of course. But what the Commissioner
will do I guess is check Mr Vaz's bank accounts.
BA: She is naturally going to do that.
CH: Yes you are right.
BA: Has she written to other people?
CH: I think so. But we have always kept
your name secret. We don't want to let you down and other people.
If you speak to people we have spoken to about in the past before
you will find they have letters.
BA: Have they replied in the affirmative?
CH: I think they have replied or are going
to reply in the affirmative.
BA: But did anyone tell you that they had
given the money.
CH: Yes.
BA: By cheque or by cash.
CH: Some by cheque. One by cash in an envelope.
We will be mentioning the planning application for the mosque
temple and other establishments in Hamilton. And that money may
have been taken by the MP there.
BA: Unclear . . . We are not having that
problem because we don't have the money.
But Mr Kapasi's Muslims they are having it.
CH: It is my understanding that that man
you have mentioned as also got a letter. Do you think he has given
money.
BA: Seems to agree. No, no I am not going
to tell anyone. He is a prominent man so he must have got a letter.
My name is now known to the Commissioner.
CH: My suspicions and local politics and
rumours flying around.
BA: You are going to mention that one businessman,
without mentioning his name, gave out £1,000 cheque to Mr
Vaz. Are you mentioning any other cheques like that?
CH: No, do you think we should?
BA: The one cheque you have mentioned that
is not the completion of your inquiries.
CH: The problem is sir to be fair anyone
you have been great. I have got to speak to people directly.
The rest of the conversation is just Mr BA asking
if anyone else has been contacted. He mentions no names or any
other details about payments.
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