Transcription of the tape of an interview
with Mr John Rafferty held on Wednesday 1 March 2000
(Mr Andrew Sharp in
attendance as a friend)
Ms Filkin: Thank you, Mr Rafferty, for coming
to see me. I am grateful to you for giving up your time. You told
me in your letter that you were employed as Party campaign co-ordinator
from 12 January 1999 to 6 May 1999.
Mr Rafferty: Yes
Ms Filkin: Did you work for the Scottish Labour
Party prior to that?
Mr Rafferty: Never: he said, joyfully.
Ms Filkin: Were you working for the Labour Party
then before that?
Mr Rafferty: No, not at all.
Ms Filkin: So you have not worked for the Labour
Party or the Scottish Labour Party?
Mr Rafferty: Never.
Ms Filkin: Have you worked for the Scottish
Labour Party, or the Labour Party, since 6 May 1999?
Mr Rafferty: No.
Ms Filkin: When you took up the post of campaign
co-ordinator, did you take it over from somebody else, or were
you the first holder of that office?
Mr Rafferty: I am not sure of the history. I
think Matthew Taylor had been there before me, seconded from Millbank,
they are set up from Millbank, to try to kind of draw things together,
but had previously been a Director of Communications (at ?) Paul
McKinney. I do not know when he left. There had been some volatility
in the staffing establishment and a slight hiatus, I think, and
then they asked me to go and run the campaign for four months.
Ms Filkin: Who briefed you when you took up
the job, what they had got, in terms of resources, what the job
was about?
Mr Rafferty: I think it was expected that it
was self-evident, what the job was about. I had a number of conversations
with them.
Ms Filkin: But, presumably, they said, "Here's
your office," and "here's your staff," and whatever?
Mr Rafferty: No; nothing quite so sophisticated.
I had a number of conversations with the Secretary of State, who
was Donald Dewar at the time, in trying to work out what had to
be done. I had one or two conversations with the General Secretary
of the Party at Millbank. I met with the General Secretary of
the Party in Scotland. I spoke to several people. I was trying
to scope in my own head what the job was that had to be done.
Ms Filkin: And in terms of staff resources,
what conversations did anybody have with you about who you had
got working for you on this campaign?
Mr Rafferty: It was not like that. It was, "Survey
the landscape, see what you have got there, in terms of the functions
which needed to be fulfilled, and come back to us, saying what
additional resources you need."
Ms Filkin: You mentioned Paul McKinney; did
you ever work with him?
Mr Rafferty: Never.
Ms Filkin: Have you ever had any contact with
him?
Mr Rafferty: I had a very bizarre conversation
with him at Heathrow Airport, just before my appointment, when
he said, "I think you should go and do this job," but
I was not in a position to comment. I have not had any contact
with Paul.
Ms Filkin: So, none since?
Mr Rafferty: No.
Ms Filkin: You worked with Alex Rowley I take
it?
Mr Rafferty: He was the General Secretary in
Scotland at the time.
Ms Filkin: Yes; and so you worked with him?
Mr Rafferty: Yes.
Ms Filkin: And Annmarie Whyte, the office manager?
Mr Rafferty: Indeed.
Ms Filkin: And was Annmarie Whyte responsible,
while you were there, for the staffing resources that were in
that office?
Mr Rafferty: I am not sure enough what you mean.
Ms Filkin: So who was responsible for the people
who worked on that campaign; was she responsible for them, and
how did those functions work?
Mr Rafferty: This is perhaps not straightforward.
Ms Filkin: I know. I am just asking; none of
these things are, in the campaigns, are they?
Mr Rafferty: In the sense of a regular business
organisation. There is no doubt that the Labour Party was responsible
for all of the members of staff, people were employed by the Labour
Party UK, contracts were issued, for example. I am assuming that
everyone else—I have no knowledge of this—had the
same kind of contract as I had, issued by Millbank, supervised
by Millbank, and eventually terminated by Millbank.
Ms Filkin: So, when you say issued and terminated,
etc., by Millbank, who, at Millbank, was the personnel person
there?
Mr Rafferty: Jonathan Upton, who I think is
the Director of Personnel, and who kind of fixed up all my staff.
As the office manageress, Annmarie Whyte ran a ledger with all
of the purchase invoices and orders and staff, and there have
been some, I think it is fair to say, there have not been, I think
she felt the system had not been as tight as it could be. So one
of the things that I did was impress on people that they had had
budgets issued to them and that they had to stick to the budget
and the ordering system, and Annmarie Whyte co-ordinated all of
that.
Ms Filkin: Did she co-ordinate things like,
"You've got a contract for 20 hours and therefore have to
work 20 hours;" was there any time-keeping?
Mr Rafferty: No.
Ms Filkin: Or anything that she had to verify,
that people actually had done work for the Labour Party for the
period of time that they said they would?
Mr Rafferty: I do not know what transactions
she carried out between Glasgow and London. My relationship with
Annmarie was that if, for example, I required something purchased,
or a job to be done, or I thought that they needed someone to
do a job for two or three weeks, or a month, or whatever, I think,
once or twice, if I identified the person she just went on and
sorted it out.
Ms Filkin: But she would make the arrangements
for the employment of staff?
Mr Rafferty: With Millbank; and, I would have
imagined, with the authority of the Scottish General Secretary.
Ms Filkin: Are you saying you had no responsibility
for the employment or the management of Party staff; but, presumably,
while you were in post you had awareness of the amount of capacity
that you had amongst those staff, who you had got full-time, who
you had got part-time?
Mr Rafferty: Absolutely.
Ms Filkin: And while you were there, and while
you have knowledge of it, to what extent did the campaign rely
on the contribution of part-timers as opposed to full-time campaign
workers? Did everybody work full-time; were they all killing themselves?
Mr Rafferty: Yes; but it did change over time,
as the campaign accelerated. And we had kind of a month of consolidation,
with no extra people, I would have thought, in January, and just
bringing that together, sorting out communication systems, aims
and objectives, and so forth.
Ms Filkin: That is a month of consolidation.
Mr Rafferty: Yes.
Ms Filkin: Who had you got working with them?
The people that I am particularly interested in, whether you had
Kevin Reid whether you had Suzanne Hilliard, whether you had Chris
Winslow working in the office full-time?
Mr Rafferty: Chris Winslow, certainly.
Ms Filkin: And they are still working full-time
for the Party, or did he work full-time for you, did he spend
all his time working for you?
Mr Rafferty: It was very fluid. I remember Chris
Winslow, on a number of occasions, I could not put a figure on
it, but I remember, if I was asking him to do something, or setting
a deadline, he said to me. "well. I can't do that today,
I need to do that by Friday because I've got questions to do for
John Maxton, and I've got this to do and that to do." And
he frequently worked from home. So it was perhaps more informal
than is in your mind, or unstructured. I was simply concerned
that they got the job done, I actually was not concerned how it
was done, or where it was done, or when it was done.
Ms Filkin: But did you think that you had got
him working for you full-time?
Mr Rafferty: I am not sure what you mean by
full-time.
Ms Filkin: It seems to me, if you have got a
part-time worker...
Mr Rafferty: He often worked from home. Yes,
I treated him, I treated all of them, I suppose, as full-time
people.
Ms Filkin: Can you give me some sort of estimate,
during the period that you were in post, of the sort of hours,
it may be guessing, in round numbers, that people worked on the
campaign, most weeks?
Mr Rafferty: This is very difficult. I was in
the office at seven in the morning and caught the eight o'clock
train every night: people came and went. I would have thought,
a minimum of 20 hours, but frequently lots more than that. But,
can I say to you, I would not rely on the accuracy of this.
Ms Filkin: No; I understand that these are only
estimates, and I am clear about that. But I have got to be able
to establish the sort of time that people were working, to understand
whether or not there is anything (happening in this Department
?). So I am very alarmed, (and among your staff ?), to check what
is being said to me; and I have got a variety of stories, I have
to say.
Mr Rafferty: In many ways, I can understand
that; but then there was lots of coming and going. And Chris Winslow
absolutely was there when I arrived, Kevin Reid had been working
before I arrived. I am not sure Suzanne Hilliard was there when
I arrived, but she was certainly around.
Ms Filkin: But was Kevin Reid there when you
arrived?
Mr Rafferty: Kevin Reid was.
Ms Filkin: I understand that Kevin Reid worked
for the Labour Party campaign from May 1998 to October 1998 full-time;
is that your understanding of the position?
Mr Rafferty: I have no knowledge of that. He
was certainly there when I started in January, and saw the campaign
through to 6 May, with a break, because I think he broke his arm,
or a bone in his hand, or something. But Kevin was there before
me every morning, had the press-cuttings done, and left around
lunch-time every day.
Ms Filkin: Were you, in any way, aware of comment,
discussion, about whether or not Kevin Reid had been working full-time,
running up until the previous October?
Mr Rafferty: No.
Ms Filkin: I understand that Suzanne Hilliard
worked full-time on the campaign; is that correct?
Mr Rafferty: We did escalate the media monitoring
function, which I think Kevin had been doing.
Ms Filkin: And she had deputised for him, as
I understand it?
Mr Rafferty: There was a group of young people,
that eventually they bolstered with more experienced resources
from Millbank. I have to say, I thought they were volunteers.
Ms Filkin: So you thought she was a volunteer?
Mr Rafferty: I thought all of the media monitoring
people, with the exception of Kevin Reid, were volunteers.
Ms Filkin: During that period that you were
there, you thought they were volunteers?
Mr Rafferty: Yes.
Ms Filkin: Did you think she was a full-time
volunteer?
Mr Rafferty: It was quite arduous. They ran
a shift system; some of them were in very, very early in the morning,
doing transcripts of late-night news programmes, and so forth,
the previous evening. There was a great brouhaha, at one point,
quite early on, that they were not responding to the first editions
of the newspapers; so they addressed that. But there were quite
a number of them, three, four people, five people, and Kevin looked
after that.
Ms Filkin: Can you recall their names?
Mr Rafferty: My only concern in all of this
was, the first thing, when we got to the conference call, the
morning call, that everything had been done. Craig, no, Blair,
I cannot remember the second name; but they were all very young
people, students, attending university, they would go off to their
classes, and so forth. I am sure the Labour Party—Blair
was one of them, a big, big, tall chap—I am quite sure that
the Labour Party will be able to provide you with their names.
Ms Filkin: But your view of Suzanne Hilliard
during that time was that she was a volunteer and that she worked
full-time on the campaign?
Mr Rafferty: No. She was at university. She
became quite ill during the campaign and was off for some time.
But they were around and then they were not around, they went
off to classes, they came back; Kevin co-ordinated it. Eventually,
Dan came up from Millbank, and really knocked them into shape,
as they got into the final month, the heat of the campaign.
Ms Filkin: Did you believe that she was working
for an MP at the time?
Mr Rafferty: Absolutely not.
Ms Filkin: I understand she substituted for
Kevin Reid when he injured his arm; is that your recollection
of what occurred?
Mr Rafferty: Yes.
Ms Filkin: And did she work more hours when
she was doing that, when she was substituting; did that mean she
had a heavier job?
Mr Rafferty: I suppose so. Yes. We reorganised
media monitoring. Dan came up from Millbank; we reorganised the
office at the end of that time, we worked out a shift system.
Ms Filkin: Would you say she worked full-time
during that period?
Mr Rafferty: I honestly could not say how many
hours they worked, but everything was well covered.
Ms Filkin: So would your impression be that
was a full-time member of staff, somebody about most of the time?
Mr Rafferty: Yes. She worked very hard indeed.
Ms Filkin: I am told that Mr Maxton paid Suzanne
Hilliard and Chris Winslow as researchers, but that they worked
full-time for the Labour Party. Is this so?
Mr Rafferty: I do not know.
Ms Filkin: You have no knowledge of that at
all?
Mr Rafferty: I knew that Chris Winslow did work
for John Maxton, but I have absolutely no knowledge of the basis
of that. And, I have to say to you, until I think after the Observer
article was published, I did not know that Suzanne Hilliard
had worked for any Member of Parliament.
Ms Filkin: So am I right in saying that you
would not have any information about whether Mr Maxton knew that,
if he was indeed employing somebody as a researcher but using
them on the campaign, this would have been in breach of the rules?
Mr Rafferty: No. I do not know anything about
that.
Ms Filkin: Going back to Chris Winslow, do you
have any information about the terms on which Chris Winslow was
employed by the Party?
Mr Rafferty: No. I know, because he became a
special adviser to the First Minister, that he was not paid very
well; but I do not know the basis of that.
Ms Filkin: When did you first know if any of
these people were working full-time on the campaign, when were
you first aware of it, and did you know who had been responsible
for arranging that?
Mr Rafferty: I am not sure I understand that.
Ms Filkin: I am trying to establish when, in
your memory, you would have assumed that any of those three people
were working full-time on the campaign. You have said there was
a period of time in which Suzanne Hilliard was working full-time
on the campaign, as far as you were concerned, you did not know
about the hours but you assumed that. You have said that, with
relation to Chris Winslow, you knew that he was working for John
Maxton some of the time, but he was working also on the campaign.
You said Kevin Reid, in your period of time, was working full-time
on the campaign.
Mr Rafferty: Well, to be clear. . .
Ms Filkin: Yes, that is what I want, to be clear.
Mr Rafferty: I arrived at seven o'clock every
morning and Kevin Reid was already there; he had the cuttings
ready.
Ms Filkin: And when did he go?
Mr Rafferty: He left around lunch-time, every
day. But then he broke his hand, and, I do not know, presumably
he got some other duties, or was generally helping out, and stuff
like that. Yes, he was allocated answering the telephones on the
press desk when he broke his hand.
Ms Filkin: And we have already talked about
Suzanne Hilliard.
Mr Rafferty: Chris Winslow; his desk was at
the back of the room, he was there lots of the time, he was not
there some of the time. I would have thought, as the campaign
reached its height, at least in the last four weeks, we would
all have been there, lots and lots and lots of hours.
Ms Filkin: So can I say, and correct me, that,
in your view, at least for the last four weeks of the campaign,
all those people were working full-time on the campaign?
Mr Rafferty: Yes; but I am still not sure about
Kevin, and the period when he broke his hand he was answering
the telephones.
Ms Filkin: If you were aware at that time that
at least Chris Winslow was being paid part-time by Mr Maxton—which
you were aware of, were you not, from what you said to me?
Mr Rafferty: Kind of, yes. Chris Winslow did
not say to me, no-one said to me, "Oh, by the way, Chris
Winslow is paid X thousand pounds by John Maxton to do Y;"
it was much more informal than that. I knew he did work for, I
did not know what. . .
Ms Filkin: (But did you not really accept it?)
?
Mr Rafferty: I think I kind of accepted that
he was paid, but I did not know the basis of the contract, and
I did not have knowledge of any of these details.
Ms Filkin: Did it ever occur to you, during
that period of time, that if that were the case and if they were
then working full-time on the work, as they obviously were, in
the last four weeks, you might say, that they were breaking House
of Commons rules?
Mr Rafferty: I have thought carefully about
this. In terms of Chris Winslow, he has an enormous capacity for
work; several times he said to me, when he was doing questions
of John Maxton, he was onto the House of Commons Library for this,
he was preparing a paper. It just never occurred to me that it
was in any way irregular.
Ms Filkin: Did Donald Dewar know about these
arrangements?
Mr Rafferty: Have you met Donald? The thought
of Donald understanding the staffing structure, or how people
were employed, and so forth; he would have no interest whatsoever
in any of this. I do not mean that in a pejorative way.
Ms Filkin: No; no, I take that. So, in your
understanding of that, though, did anybody give Donald Dewar advice
about these arrangements; for example, advising him that they
might be against House of Commons rules?
Mr Rafferty: Not to my knowledge, during the
campaign.
Ms Filkin: At any time?
Mr Rafferty: I could not say what he knew and
what he did not know.
Ms Filkin: But do you know if anybody gave him
advice?
Mr Rafferty: No.
Ms Filkin: Do you know if it was discussed with
anyone, in front of anyone else?
Mr Rafferty: I would need to think. Not that
I am aware of, but I am just trying to remember back through all
of the conversations, and we came, working through our own Standards
Committee inquiry, at the start of the Parliament. I may have
had a discussion with him about the level of Chris Winslow's salary,
when he was being engaged as a special adviser, because, of course,
according to Civil Service rules, that was set according to previous
salary, and actually I think I had, I would need to check this,
that I am almost sure I had Chris lay out the basis of his salary
for the previous year.
Ms Filkin: For the previous year?
Mr Rafferty: Yes; this would not be until well
after the election when he was being engaged as a special adviser.
Ms Filkin: So you asked him to set out what
actually had been his salary arrangements for the previous year?
Mr Rafferty: For the Personnel Director at the
Scottish Office. This would be to verify the level of his salary.
And I think it is true probably that the First Minister was aware
of that. But, in terms of identifying conversations, and things,
I could not do that.
Ms Filkin: Have you any knowledge that when
he was aware of it he thought, for example, "Goodness me,
this looks as if this person, whom I thought was being employed
full-time on the campaign, is actually being paid as somebody's
researcher"?
Mr Rafferty: No.
Ms Filkin: Did any of that worry anybody, to
your knowledge?
Mr Rafferty: Not to my knowledge.
Ms Filkin: I have had it put to me that, in
fact, Donald Dewar was advised about that, and that numbers of
senior Party officials were very anxious about whether or not
such a complaint might be levelled against them. Have you got
any, were you party to or have you any knowledge of those conversations?
Mr Rafferty: No.
Ms Filkin: would you have expected to have had
knowledge of them, if they had been going on?
Mr Rafferty: not necessarily. This was a reasonably
arcane structure, where I was brought in to do the project management
of the election campaign; the General Secretary was still in place,
running the Labour Party and the Party structures, in liaison
with Millbank, in terms of employment of staff, and so forth,
Annmarie Whyte was the office manager. I was coming in to work
around an existing structure, which still functions. In terms
of the business of the Labour Party with the arrangements for
the campaign, I would not normally have been involved in those
discussions.
Ms Filkin: Thank you very much. You have confirmed
to me that, at least for four weeks, all of those people were
working full-time on the campaign, including yourself full-time,
and some were being paid full-time; so you have confirmed to me
that. Have you got any other information, which you feel that
I have not asked you about, but which does throw light on when
people were employed, on which contract, and what they were doing
when they were employed on those contracts?
Mr Rafferty: No.
Ms Filkin: Have you given me the whole picture,
as far as you are concerned?
Mr Rafferty: I think so.
Ms Filkin: Please think about it carefully,
because I honestly do not want to have to trouble you again, I
do not want the Committee to have to call you in, because I feel
that would be a nuisance for you.
Mr Rafferty: There was lots of discussion, after
the Cabinet was appointed and they were appointing special advisers,
about the level of salaries. I genuinely cannot remember. It may
well be that, in a private conversation with the First Minister,
I said to him, "I understand that Chris Winslow was engaged
by John Maxton for some of the time." I was not fully aware
of the dates. Because Chris had several times said to me he was
doing work for John Maxton, but it just never occurred to me that
that was in any way irregular.
Ms Filkin: I understand that you did not think
it was irregular. Can you then recall that conversation, because
you say you may have had it; did you have it?
Mr Rafferty: This is out of hundreds of conversations.
I think, probably I had it.
Ms Filkin: Have you any idea when it was?
Mr Rafferty: This would be (June ?).
Ms Filkin: And what did Donald Dewar say?
Mr Rafferty: No, we did not have a...
Ms Filkin: You just said it in passing?
Mr Rafferty: Yes.
Ms Filkin: He did not respond to that?
Mr Rafferty: No, we did not have a long conversation
about it.
Ms Filkin: So did he make any response to that,
did he say, "Well, I didn't know that," or did you assume
that he was aware of it?
Mr Rafferty: No; there was nothing remarkable
about it.
Ms Filkin: You are probably aware that I have
already written to a large number of witnesses.
Mr Rafferty: I was not aware of that.
Ms Filkin: Are you aware that I have written
to anybody else?
Mr Rafferty: I was aware that you had written
to Chris Winslow.
Ms Filkin: Yes, anybody else?
Mr Rafferty: No.
Ms Filkin: How were you aware that I had written
to Chris Winslow?
Mr Rafferty: I had a conversation with him about
it.
Ms Filkin: When was that?
Mr Rafferty: He bought his girlfriend a piano
for Christmas, and I was delivering some music, a few Saturdays
ago. I do not know.
Ms Filkin: And what did he say; did he say that
I had written to him, or what did he say about the contents?
Mr Rafferty: He told me that he had received
a copy of a letter which the Observer had sent to you, in which
he said my name was mentioned. I have not seen this letter. And
the only other thing I have received is the letter from you.
Ms Filkin: Did he tell you that he had been
approached by me?
Mr Rafferty: I think he said he had received
a letter from you.
Ms Filkin: I am informed by some of the people
that I have contacted that the responses to my questions are being
co-ordinated by somebody; are your responses co-ordinated by anybody?
Mr Rafferty: No.
Ms Filkin: Have you had any approaches from
anybody to co-ordinate what you have said?
Mr Rafferty: No. My answers to your questions
this morning are completely unrehearsed.
Ms Filkin: Thank you very much.
Mr Rafferty: Thank you.
Ms Filkin: I think I will just ask you, finally,
is there anything else that you feel that you can pass on to me,
to assist me, either any information or the names of people who
you think may have more information about these matters and might
be able to assist me? You have given me one name, that is the
Personnel Director at Millbank; are there other people who you
think might be more knowledgeable?
Mr Rafferty: I think you have probably got all
the information. The General Secretary and Annmarie Whyte, Leslie
Quinn from the Labour Party in Scotland, would know the arrangements
prior to January 1999. I never saw any evidence of claim sheets.
I do not know how the salaries were authorised. Jonathan Upton
would be the chap to tell you whether there was a system there
for that.
Ms Filkin: And it is Leslie Winn?
Mr Rafferty: Quinn.
Ms Filkin: And anybody else, who has left, whom
we could contact through those sources, that you would know of,
who might be able to help. Thanks very much. Is there anything
you want to ask me?
Mr Rafferty: What happens now?
Ms Filkin: What happens now is I slog away.
Mr Rafferty: Will I get to hear from you again?
Ms Filkin: No; you will (not ?) hear from me.
I slog away and follow up all the leads that I have got, and so
on. I then come to a view as to whether I have got the truth or
not. If I think I have not got the truth then I will advise the
Committee to call people before it, and the Committee will ask
questions. I will write a report on whether I think it is correct
or not, and I will put that to the Select Committee; the Select
Committee always publishes my report, alongside their report,
with their views, which might not be the same as mine, and they
are entitled to have their own views if they wish. It always publishes
in full my reports and the evidence I put before them, so that
they are in the public domain, and then journalists and the public
can look at it. When that happens, I always ensure that everybody
who has given their time to assist an inquiry gets a copy of that
printed report, but, of course, it is publicly (—inaudible—)
out of courtesy, (—inaudible—) helped us, (and,
of course, it is publicly ?) make sure gets a copy of those reports.
I think that is the (basis of it ?)
Mr Rafferty: What is the timetable for you reaching
a conclusion?
Ms Filkin: The time I need to do it.
Mr Rafferty: The best of luck.
Ms Filkin: So the one that is going to be debated
this afternoon in the House, which is in the public domain, so
I can mention it, took nine months; some of them take a week.
So it just depends how quickly I feel I need to do it, how much
time I have to take to satisfy myself, and I have to be prepared
to go to Members of Parliament and to the people who have made
the complaint. And so sometimes it takes quite a lot of time.
I am more concerned with evidence than spin. But I realise that
it is (—inaudible—House?). I try to do it as
quickly as I can. When you have gone away, if you think of anything
else that you feel I ought to know, or that strikes you, perhaps
you would telephone me, or give it to me?
Mr Rafferty: Of course.
Ms Filkin: And, indeed, if you come across other
people whom you feel might wish to speak to me, perhaps you will
encourage them to put information to me?
Mr Rafferty: Yes.
Ms Filkin: Thank you.
Mr Rafferty: Thank you.
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