Examination of Witnesses(Questions 260-263)
BARONESS YOUNG,
DR MARTIN
GRIFFITHS AND
DR ANDREW
SKINNER
WEDNESDAY 6 NOVEMBER 2002
Paddy Tipping
260. We have talked a lot about the importance
of farmers and land owners, can we focus on them a little. I think
you told us there were 180,000 farmers, in the scale of things
how much do they contribute to the problem through diffuse pollution?
(Baroness Young) A fairly substantial amount. We have
done a study on the environmental impact of farmers and that came
up with a figure of about £1.8 billion of environmental impact
every year but on the other hand they deliver 0.9 of a billion
in environmental services, so we are not knocking farmers. About
0.5 a billion of that environmental impact could be removed by
simple changes of practice that would not cost farmers money.
There are things that we can do through agri-environment schemes,
through information and education to diminish some of those costs.
There is no doubt about it, as we have seen rivers clean up as
a result of regulation of point source pollution, farmers are
a bigger and bigger part of that. We have to work with the farming
communities on getting them to put in place positive environmental
management systems that will reduce their impact on rivers in
a way that fits in with their farm business. Hopefully in many
cases it is about no cost solutions and where there are solutions
that require cost we target the environmental subsidy system towards
those, either in terms of capital grants or on-going payment.
261. I have a lot to do with farmers and they
never seem to think that the things that government tell them
to do is done at no cost, perhaps you can just explain some of
the things that can be done first of all at no cost and then,
secondly, this is a more significant point, talk to me a little
bit about the financial tools that are available there? Presumably
one is arguing a pillar one to a pillar two switch, a point Andrew
Skinner made earlier on, is there more we should be doing? Is
this yet another lever for change of the CAP, as it were?
(Baroness Young) I hope it is a central part of the
change despite the latest hiccups in terms of France and Germany.
262. It was a fist-fight, was it not!
(Baroness Young) We would be happy to the give the
Committee a booklet we produced with the NFU that outlines how
you can save money on your farm. It is about a series of mechanisms
and things people can do, simple ploughing techniques, simple
planting techniques, simple use of waterside strips that can reduce
the pollution impact of farming at no cost to the farmer. In many
cases we produced case studies that showed that it saved the farmers
money. That is not the total cost. There are other things where
farmers will have to kit up and perhaps lose an element of production
or whatever. One of the saddest stories in the last few months
in terms of farming is the way we introduced the Nitrate Vulnerable
Zones provisions in this country. We allowed the NFU to have this
almighty fist-fight in public to reduce the amount of farmers
who have to think about their nitrate impact and indeed their
phosphate impact on the water courses and let the farming communities
believe that winning a very low percentage, to whom this applied,
was a great victory. In fact if we were looking forward to the
Water Framework Directive we ought to be with the NFU encouraging
farmers to begin thinking through what their role in Nitrate Vulnerable
Zones was and have the whole country designated. For the vast
majority of farmers it would have simply meant them thinking through
low cost, good farming practice and for a small proportion it
would require either capital investment in order to comply with
the regulations or indeed some change in their farming practice.
It would have been a good start in getting farmers to think through
how they can reduce their impact and at the same time save money
or where there is the requirement for funding, how we need to
construct capital grants to allow farms to handle wastes, nutrients,
pesticides and other pollutants in different ways and also how
we can put in place the entry level scheme which will get more
farmers into agri-environmental schemes, which are not just—this
is my English Nature hat coming on again—focused on features,
biodiversity and landscape but are focused on the really key roles
that farmers play in resource protection, protecting water, soil,
air and we have to really find ways of making the new agri-environment
schemes act at that really basic level. If we do not do that we
will not deliver the Water Framework Directive nor will we protect
the raw materials of farming. I am on my hobby horse at the moment,
soils in this country are in a really bad state, and it is only
very recently we have realised that, we have been eroding the
nutrients content, eroding the biodiversity and structure of our
soils as a result of inadequate schemes. It is for farmers to
think about those issues while they are farming.
263. There are good practice, fiscal instruments
but at the end of the day you have to audit this somehow, is this
an argument for the whole farm audit approach?
(Baroness Young) We worry a bit about the number of
audits suggested under the various farm regimes, we think there
should be a single audit that will allow farmers to plug in to
agri-environment schemes, the accreditation schemes for producers
and some of the things we need them to do under European regulations
and other regulations that are coming upon the farming community.
So a single audit approach, a think through on a whole farm basis,
of exactly what those impacts are and make sure it is dovetailed
with the farm business and that we take it at a pace where farmers
with farm businesses can cope. It is going to be pretty fundamental.
We are working with the NFU to try and make the first steps on
that.
Chairman: Thank you very much. If we do have
a Water Bill no doubt we will see each other again perhaps rather
earlier than anticipated. One of core tasks is now pre legislative
scrutiny, we may have to address ourselves to that. Thank you
very much, that has been extremely helpful and we may want to
be in contact with you to amplify what you said. There were a
couple of things you promised to send us a be on. Thank you very
much for your help.
(Baroness Young) We worry a bit
about the number of audits suggested under the various farm regimes,
we think there should be a single audit that will allow farmers
to plug in to agri-environment schemes, the accreditation schemes
for producers and some of the things we need them to do under
European regulations and other regulations that are coming upon
the farming community. So a single audit approach, a think through
on a whole farm basis, of exactly what those impacts are and make
sure it is dovetailed with the farm business and that we take
it at a pace where farmers with farm businesses can cope. It is
going to be pretty fundamental. We are working with the NFU to
try and make the first steps on that.
Chairman: Thank you very much. If we do have
a Water Bill no doubt we will see each other again perhaps rather
earlier than anticipated. One of core tasks is now pre legislative
scrutiny, we may have to address ourselves to that. Thank you
very much, that has been extremely helpful and we may want to
be in contact with you to amplify what you said. There were a
couple of things you promised to send us a be on. Thank you very
much for your help.
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