Examination of Witnesses (Questions 120
- 134)
WEDNESDAY 31 OCTOBER 2001
SIR DON
CURRY, CBE AND
MR JAMES
QUINAULT
120. Are there any common themes coming through
the submissions which you have received?
(Sir Don Curry) Yes.
121. I would be amazed if there were not.
(Sir Don Curry) Yes, of course there are. We have
not yet, however, produced an analysis of all those returns because
we are only just beginning to conclude that written submission
process. We are using an outside agency to help to rake through
all the submissions and try and identify where there are common
themes and indeed where there are important pieces of information
and suggestions which we might want to explore. Yes, of course
there are themes.
122. I think there would be a huge commonality
of the strategic overview of the sector and some of the issues
it faces. You have had 1,000 submissions. Many of us will have
received certainly tens of submissions of various kinds which
groups have kindly thought we might be interested in, and many
of them are very interesting, but they often say virtually identical
things. The big gap, which I think most of us would hope your
Commission would fill, is turning a strategic overview and identification
of common themes into a set of precise policy tools. The number
of times we have been told that there needs to be reform of the
Common Agricultural Policy, a move from production systems to
support, etcetera, etcetera. I do not want to hear any more of
those. What I would like to hear more of is how exactly are we
going to do this and how are we going to do that consistent with
our membership of the European Union and our commitment to trade
liberalisation and all of the other pre-conditions that are put
in place on this inquiry and on any farm policy that we might
devise?
(Sir Don Curry) Indeed, you are quite right, that
is the challenge. The analysis is not difficult and there is a
recognition that things have got to change. Indeed, as someone
said to me very early on in this process, the current system of
support and the circumstances that our industry finds itself in
is not making anyone very happy, so things have to change. And
it is tracking that change, and we are determined not simply to
agree a vision but agree how to get there. That will be fraught
with numerous obstacles—reform of the European Union is
one, as is the pace of change. We will have to look clearly at
all of the external forces which will impact on the delivery of
the vision, but I am very keen not only to say we believe this
is the route forward, but also to stage the process of how we
get there.
123. This has to be practical, not a set of
heady aspirations.
(Sir Don Curry) Indeed, and we must know who is responsible
for delivering that change.
Mr Drew
124. Can I return very quickly to the structure
of the group. Can I just clarify, can you co-opt?
(Sir Don Curry) No. If I had seriously believed that
we had a weakness on that group I would have approached government
to ask for that weakness to be filled. I do not believe we need
to do that. We have ten Commissioners, including myself. It is
quite large enough. The range of skill and knowledge around the
table is immense. We are seeking outside help wherever possible.
We are talking to interest groups who believe they are not represented,
if that is a correct phrase, on the Commission, and giving them
lots of opportunity to make sure that we understand their views
and we build them into our thinking.
125. Can I suggest two possible lacunae in terms
of who you have got on there—firstly, representatives of
small farmers (and the criticism of Reg Haydon is both direct
and helpful) but also the co-operative movement. To my mind, two
of the obvious areas we need to look at are how small farmers
can be given a different rationale to how they farm and, secondly,
surely co-operation (I declare an interest as a co-operative member)
must be one of the outcomes, which is where we are fundamentally
different in this country to our European colleagues?
(Sir Don Curry) I am aware, of course, that there
are concerns on the part of the interest groups that you have
identified, and very early I met with Christine Tacon from the
Co-op and I saw Christine again last night and I am very keen
to use her knowledge and experience to help us understand the
issues that are important in terms of co-operative activity. However,
let me also say that in every single meeting that we have held
the lack of co-operation and collaboration in our industry has
been identified as perhaps the biggest single issue, the biggest
single responsibility on our industry, and lack of progress is
placing us at a serious competitive disadvantage. In terms of
togetherness and our ability to deliver efficiently within a global
market, the lack of co-operative activity in Britain is seen as
a major weakness and that is an area we have to look at very carefully.
Our industry has been lectured for many, many years to improve
its co-operative skills and little progress has been made so far.
So we are well aware of that issue. I have also met, incidentally,
with the animal welfare groups who believe they were not properly
represented on the Commission and I have met with their Chairmen
subsequently. We have given them work to do and we are very keen
to have their input. I have met Reg Haydon and we are well aware
of concerns about the viability of small farms and what their
future is, and we have taken that on board very seriously as an
issue for detailed consideration, and are very interested in views
that any organisation might have on this particular issue.
Chairman
126. You will have attended as Chairman of the
MLC a great many "pig breakfasts", one of which took
place this morning. Had you been there, a special award was given
to a gentleman who runs a web site and newspaper who then delivered
an absolutely hysterical rant against the supermarkets. Every
single farming prejudice and myth about the supermarket was encapsulated
in about five minutes of some of the greatest nonsense I have
heard for a very long time indeed. Do you regard it as part of
your job to put to rest some of these myths?
(Sir Don Curry) I am sorry, Chairman, this is a very
big subject.
127. But you have got a supermarket boss on
your Commission?
(Sir Don Curry) We have. I think we have the most
efficient supermarkets in the world here in Britain. They are
very professional and they have delivered new technologies in
the way of logistics and distribution which are excellent. The
problems do not lie with the supermarkets; the problem lies with
the supply industry and farmers' willingness to collaborate together
within an integrated supply chain, not to try and counter supermarket
power but to develop an inter-dependency which ensures that farmer
are able to sit at the table and properly negotiate and are properly
rewarded for their efforts and for the contribution they make
in the production of raw materials. In my opinion, it has never
been appropriate to slam supermarkets because they involve very
successful businesses. The challenge is on our industry to get
its act together and its house in order to make sure that it delivers.
Mr Todd
128. Whenever does it make sense to berate your
main customers? A strange business practice.
(Sir Don Curry) Absolutely. The number of times I
have sat in a farmers' meeting where farmers have done exactly
as you heard this morning and said "all they are interested
in is making money". For Goodness sake, why are farmers in
business?
Chairman
129. Can I come back to a point Mark made, that
a lot of detail is in the Common Agricultural Policy, and it is
true that the World Trade Organisation determines a lot of the
directions in which we move, and we have enlargement as well,
consequently, the range of autonomous national decision-making
you may influence is quite small. You are the flea on the back
of the elephant, are you not?
(Sir Don Curry) There are a number of points —
130. The purpose of the question is simply to
say, given that you are operating against a framework which is
set internationally, where do you think you can actually say things
which will have a substantive influence?
(Sir Don Curry) Dealing with the WTO firstly, there
is still a lot to play for in terms of negotiations that will
take place. They will be prolonged and detailed and so there is
still a lot to play for in terms of WTO. You are quite right,
setting terms of international trade is something which we will
have to buy into and abide by. The Common Agricultural Policy,
however, is up for review—major review in 2005, interim
review in 2003—and I hope that our conclusions will assist
government in trying to influence CAP reform. So I do not believe
that we are entirely outside of that and unable to participate
or influence those negotiations. I hope that our views will be
helpful to government in terms of how it should proceed with CAP
reform. There is still considerable discretion here lying within
the British Government, in terms, for example, of the transfer
from Pillar I to Pillar II and how those resources should be used.
There are a number of areas we can influence which are crucial
to the future of the farming industry and the management of the
countryside. I believe it is important that we set down some markers
in terms of how policy should be staged in terms of reforming
it and driving it and, as I said earlier in answer to Mark's question,
delivering vision. That applies to the industry, not just government.
Our industry needs a sense of direction.
131. Talking about the process, you have just
said that you have had hundreds and hundreds of submissions. Your
Commission is made up of extraordinarily busy people. If you run
Sainsbury's you are no doubt completely stretched and there are
other busy people. Is it not inevitable that an awful lot of the
responsibility is going to devolve down to the draftsman of your
report. Who is going to write it? You are not going to write it,
are you? So Mr Quinault is the man who is going to be the author
of this report. How are you going to go about that? Are you going
to try and distill what everybody has said and fathom common points
or are you going to ask your Commission members who are not going
to read everything, any more than members of this Committee read
anything—everything. I do not wish to dispel this myth of
omnipotence but the fact of the matter is that an awful lot is
going to depend on you, Mr Quinault, in joining together these
threads.
(Sir Don Curry) This is a very trite and silly remark,
Chairman, but I am having to put agricultural correspondence on
one side at the present time. Can we come back to a remark you
made earlier that the people on this Commission are busy people.
I am very impressed with their dedication and the time they are
making available. You mentioned Sir Peter Davis and he is clearing
his diary in order to give time to this, and so are others. It
is very impressive how they are making sufficient time available
to properly consider the papers, to consider the direction and
the vision that we are trying to agree at the present time. Their
input is substantial. James can talk through the drafting process.
(Mr Quinault) I can only endorse that. I am well aware
of the responsibility on me and my team. I have been amazed at
the time and commitment that members are prepared to put into
this. I can only say that on the papers and so on we have shown
them so far in the process of trying to work up a consensus on
the issues, they have looked very, very closely indeed at what
we have put before them.
132. Has the Haskins Report and the Rural Task
Force and the plethora of reports on how we get over foot and
mouth influenced you?
(Sir Don Curry) Chris Haskins' task was very specific,
it was foot and mouth recovery and how the rural economy could
recover from the impact of foot and mouth disease. Yes, it is
helpful but at this stage we are looking longer term than the
immediate challenge of recovery from the foot and mouth outbreak.
133. Do you think you will have something new
to say or do you think the merit of your report is likely to be
in bringing together and rendering coherent a series of ideas
which are in general circulation at the moment?
(Sir Don Curry) I will be very disappointed if we
have not got something new to say. I do, however, think there
is a need to bring together many of the policy issues at the present
time which are very disparate and fragmented. I have to say there
is a lot of confusion out there within the farming industry, particularly
about the direction of policy at the moment and where to go for
help and trying to find their way through the proliferation of
bodies that exist. There is a need to bring all of that together,
but I do hope that we will have some new policy suggestions in
our report.
134. The Minister in a recent speech which was
given to one of the environmental organisations (it was not a
farming audience) said, inter alia, that she wanted to
make Britain one of the centres of organic production. On almost
any other issue ministers are asked about, they say they are going
to await the outcome of your report. Were you not a little surprised
that the Minister had decided where she wanted to go on this one
even though you had got perhaps the leading figure in the organic
world on your Commission?
(Sir Don Curry) I cannot gag ministers, they can say
what they wish. I have asked that ministers keep me advised of
any serious policy decisions that they may have to make during
the period in which we are considering our report. Organic farming,
the marketing of organic produce has clearly increased significantly
over the last few years, but it is far too early for me to say
whether or not I agree with the Minister's statement.
Chairman: Sir Don, the last time we saw you
it was your valedictory in the MLC and we said we had the suspicion
you probably would be back wearing some other hat because you
would not like to spend the rest of your time down on the farm
or indeed in the pulpit. You have a different type of pulpit,
I suppose and we wish you luck in it. Thank you very much for
a relatively brief but a very useful session. We do want to keep
closely in touch with these Commissions and we have our role to
play as well. No doubt we will see you back again and as Enobarbus
said to Cleopatra, and I repeat it back to Mr Quinault when he
comes to drafting the report, "We wish you much joy of the
worm"!
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