Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1
- 19)
WEDNESDAY 12 DECEMBER 2001
BARONESS AMOS
AND MR
ANDREW POCOCK
Chairman
1. Baroness Amos, on behalf of the Committee
may I warmly welcome you to what I think is your first appearance
before the Committee?
(Baroness Amos) Thank you. It is my first
appearance.
2. The subject, Zimbabwe. I think it would generally
be agreed that were it not for the events of September 11th Zimbabwe
would be much higher up the agenda of national concern and world
concern. Baroness Amos, I recall your speech to the ACTSA annual
conference on 17 November when you said that the European Union's
attempt to conduct a dialogue "has not worked". You
said in respect of the Abuja Agreement of 6 September that effectively
Zimbabwe had not honoured its commitments under that agreement
of 6 September which was confirmed by the Commercial Farmers Union
in their evidence to the SADC meeting in Harare yesterday. You
went on, also, to look at the pressure from the region, from the
SADC countries, which was to be maintained but equally there seemed
at that time, when you gave your speech on 17 November, to be
very little movement. With your knowledge, you have been with
the Foreign Secretary to Harare, you have been involved in the
Commonwealth Ministerial Action Group, do you emerge with total
despair? Can you point out to the Committee which areas, if any,
of pressure are likely to have a significant effect on the President
and his country?
(Baroness Amos) Chairman, thank you. Can I say, first
of all, that I went with the Secretary of State to Abuja and I
went with members of the Commonwealth Group to Harare and I think
that is an important distinction that the Committee will want
to know. As the Secretary of State said to the Committee last
week, we remain deeply concerned about the situation in Zimbabwe.
I think the very important thing that has happened is that the
attempts which have been made by the Government of Zimbabwe to
say that what is happening in Zimbabwe and the concerns which
are being expressed by the British Government—which are
purely matters between the Government of Zimbabwe and Britain—have
changed dramatically. We have seen the concerns being expressed
by the Commonwealth, not only through the Abuja process under
the direction of President Obasanjo, but the concerns, as you
rightly expressed, of SADC, also of the European Union and also
of the United States and other international partners. In terms
of the pressure which I think will have most impact on the Government
of Zimbabwe, I think the concerns which have been expressed by
the Presidents of South Africa, of Malawi and Mozambique and other
SADC partners are extremely important in this process because
it remains our view that the pressure which is being put by SADC
and the concerns which are being expressed by Zimbabwe's neighbours
is the thing which the Government of Zimbabwe will listen to most
but that other international pressure coming behind that, in the
sense of the Commonwealth process, the European Union process
and other international pressure also has an important role to
play.
3. That concern has been expressed, it has been
expressed over a long time period, as the President of Malawi
on behalf of SADC, President Mbeki as a neighbour, clearly very
concerned at the effect on investment in the region and also as
South Africa is effectively the major creditor, ESKOM, and the
energy supply of Zimbabwe, have there been any results?
(Baroness Amos) I am not sure if the Committee saw
the press today but there are reports in the press today which
have been confirmed by our own staff in Harare that President
Mugabe has indicated that the elections will be held in March,
although a date has not been agreed. He has stated, also, that
election observers will be welcome although it has been made clear
from those reports in the press that EU observers will not necessarily
be welcome, although observers from individual European countries
will be welcome. Our concern in relation to the elections has
always been to say, with our international partners, that if the
Government of Zimbabwe has nothing to hide then a commitment to
having election observers and ensuring that those election observers
are able to be in the country in sufficient time so that they
are able to see that not only the election itself on the day but
the processes leading up to the election are not marred by violence
and intimidation is extremely important. I think the fact that
international election observers will be allowed into Zimbabwe
is important but I think that the timing of that remains a concern.
Chairman: We will be coming back to the elections
later but Mr Olner has a series of questions.
Mr Olner
4. Good morning. The Commonwealth Ministerial
Action Group will be meeting in London next week to discuss possible
action against President Mugabe. What do you anticipate will come
out of that meeting or what would you like to see come out of
that meeting?
(Baroness Amos) As the Committee knows, CMAG has the
ability to make recommendations to the Heads of State of the Commonwealth.
There has been increasing concern within the Commonwealth about
what is happening in Zimbabwe. CMAG has discussed Zimbabwe on
a number of occasions and indeed made a recommendation that a
team from CMAG should itself visit Zimbabwe. This was not agreed
by the Government of Zimbabwe and it was as a result of that the
broader Commonwealth process emerged which was facilitated by
President Obasanjo. So there has been ongoing concern within CMAG
and I think what we would like to see happen is that there is
a discussion of Zimbabwe at CMAG and out of that discussion will
come a recommendation to Heads of State of the Commonwealth about
the way in which CMAG has seen the process in Zimbabwe and perhaps
some recommendations with respect to the elections in particular.
5. At what point do you think the Government
will consider advocating the expulsion of Zimbabwe from the Commonwealth?
(Baroness Amos) As Members of the Committee know matters
of expulsion from the Commonwealth are very narrowly defined so
that Commonwealth Heads of Government would themselves have to
consider this but the terms of the Millbrook Commonwealth Action
Programme make it clear that that this can only be considered
in cases where a legitimate democratic government has been overthrown.
This has been a cause of some concern in Commonwealth countries
and there has been a High Level Group which has been looking at
the role of the Commonwealth in general and in particular as to
whether or not the remit of CMAG, for example, should be broadened
and whether the grounds on which Heads of the Commonwealth would
make a decision about possible expulsion of another Commonwealth
country would be considered. That report will be considered at
the March meeting.
6. Surely we should be looking at it? If law
and order has broken down, if the courts are not sufficiently
strong enough to ensure some of the agreements which have been
reached are actually carried through then that is very serious
for all the Commonwealth countries.
(Baroness Amos) It is extremely serious for all Commonwealth
countries but I think it is important, also, for the Committee
to remember that the Commonwealth operates by consensus. Commonwealth
members are very keen to ensure that they do not work outside
their terms of reference, as it were, which is why the High Level
Group's review is such an important part of this process.
Mr Chidgey
7. Good morning, Lady Amos. As recently as 7
November your colleague Ben Bradshaw told the House that the five
principles underlining British policy are, and I will paraphrase
them for speed. Firstly, Britain is interested in seeing a stable,
prosperous and democratic Zimbabwe. Zimbabweans deserve and should
get the help of the international community. Their future prosperity
depends on respect for the rule of law and an end to political
violence. Fourthly that Britain will help Zimbabwe to achieve
prosperity through successful land reform. Finally, the future
of Zimbabwe should be left in the hands of the people of Zimbabwe
and that they should be given a genuine opportunity to make their
voice heard. I have set that out, Lady Amos, because as far as
this Committee can see none of those principles is being progressed
with any degree of satisfaction or success. My question to you
is to what extent can Britain start to invoke those principles
into reality? What influence can we put to achieve these principles
by influencing the government of President Mugabe?
(Baroness Amos) I think the first thing to say is
that those principles remain the corner stone of our policy towards
Zimbabwe. I think the other thing I would want to make absolutely
clear to the Committee, which I said in my very first answer,
is that it is important that we are working in concert with our
international partners because there has been such an attempt
by the Government of Zimbabwe to make this into a bilateral issue
between the Government of Zimbabwe and ourselves. In terms of
the influence that we have with the Government of Zimbabwe, I
think that we have to appreciate that Zimbabwe is a sovereign
state, that politically the Government of Zimbabwe has used what
it sees as its bilateral difficulties with the United Kingdom
as a corner stone of its own domestic internal politics so that
Britain is often held up as the country which is working to subvert
the way that other countries and international partners see the
Government of Zimbabwe. The influence that we have, I think, comes
through the work that we do with our SADC partners, with our Commonwealth
partners, with our European Union partners. We do have, I think,
a minimal degree of influence with the Government of Zimbabwe
itself in that they would wish us to support through resource
flows the land reform programme in Zimbabwe. What we have said
absolutely clearly, and which is part of the Abuja Agreement,
is that if the Government of Zimbabwe meets the commitments that
it has made with respect to the restoration of the rule of law,
freedom of expression and adhering to the Harare principles then
we, as the UK Government, following a UNDP visit to actually look
at the technical aspects of land reform, would consider supporting
that land reform process. We have made it absolutely clear that
we would only do that if the Government of Zimbabwe met its commitments.
So I think I am saying to the Committee that our bilateral influence
depends on the Government of Zimbabwe wanting us to support that
land reform process but that the influence is minimal in that
respect and that our influence is greater when we are working
in concert with our international partners.
8. Thank you. That is on the record. Certainly
I understand the issue on land reform and, of course, the issue
of the pre-colonial situation. However, there must be a question
here, Lady Amos. It is quite a convenient defence for Britain
to say we cannot engage directly with Zimbabwe because of the
action from Mugabe. What I would like, therefore, to ask you more
specifically is in pursuit of these principles, to improve the
situation in Zimbabwe, what progress are we making with our international
partners to achieve those aims? I accept we cannot do this directly
for obvious reasons but what progress are we making with the international
community?
(Baroness Amos) Can I say, first of all, that I hope
the Committee did not take my remarks to mean that we cannot engage
directly. The question I was asked was specifically about the
degree of influence that we have with the Government of Zimbabwe.
We really continue to engage directly with the Government of Zimbabwe.
The Secretary of State, for example, most recently, through our
High Commissioner in Harare, made a very strong démarche
with respect to the treatment of journalists in Zimbabwe,
for example, so we continue to engage on an almost daily basis
with the Government of Zimbabwe through our High Commissioner
and also through the work that we do here in London which is different,
I think, from the specific point about the degree of influence
that we then have as a result of those bilateral relationships.
I really do not want the Committee to go away with the idea that
we do not continue with our bilateral relations, we do, and we
have given some very hard messages to the Government of Zimbabwe
with respect to this. I think the other side of it, which is to
what extent do the Government of Zimbabwe then listen and what
influence do we have, is a slightly different point. Coming back
to the more specific question about what degree of influence do
we then have in relation to these five principles—
9. With the international community.
(Baroness Amos)—with the international community,
clearly the countries in the SADC region are increasingly concerned
about the economic instability in Zimbabwe and the impact of that
economic instability on their own countries. We have seen what
has happened to the South African rand which today is standing
at something like 15.8 rands to the pound. So quite a fall in
the value of the rand, some of which is attributable to the situation
in Zimbabwe. So, working with our SADC partners we are working
to try and ensure that the kind of prosperity and stability that
we want to see economically in Zimbabwe comes to fruition. We
are working with our Commonwealth partners on issues like the
rule of law, ending political violence and these are areas which
are also of concern to our SADC partners. On land reform, we have
seen the UNDP mission, who have recently completed that mission,
they are now back in New York, and we are expecting their report
shortly. Of course, we are working with all the stakeholders in
Zimbabwe, NGOs, human rights' activists, members of the opposition
who really want to ensure that the upcoming elections are free
and fair, free of harassment and free of violence.
Sir John Stanley
10. Minister, I think you will agree that the
prelude to the elections in March is extremely disturbing so far
and as you will be well aware the opposition MDC's headquarters
in Bulawayo has been set ablaze, allegedly by ruling Zanu PF supporters
and significant numbers of the opposition MDC's political figures
have now been put in jail or have gone into hiding and in large
parts of the country it appears that the opposition has, to all
intents and purposes, had to go underground. In addition, Mr Mugabe
has introduced into the Zimbabwean Parliament radically new changes
for voter registration and as to the implication of those, if
I can just refer to what was said in The Daily Telegraph on
1st December. "Mr Mugabe is now pushing a series of laws
through parliament which serve only one purpose: guaranteeing
the outcome of the election. All Zimbabweans who live abroad are
being denied the right vote, except those in the diplomatic corps
or the army, who are assumed to back Mr Mugabe. Everyone else
is facing entirely new requirements for voter registration, carefully
constructed to bear most heavily on MDC supporters. In the cities—Mr
Tsvangirai's heartland—people will have to produce a plethora
of documents before they will be entered on the roll: proof of
address in the form of title deeds, rental agreements or utility
bills will have to be shown. When you live in a shack in a heaving
township this is quite a challenge. Hundreds of thousands of Mr
Tsvangirai's voters will be disenfranchised. In the countryside,
village chiefs will have to vouch for everyone who registers.
Each headman is paid a grant by the government and almost all
support Zanu PF. None will vouch for anyone he suspects of backing
the MDC. Any chief foolish enough to do would be severely dealt
with. Other laws are designed to give Mr Mugabe a free hand to
run the election with one outcome in mind." Minister, can
I ask you, against that background of violence, intimidation and
apparent rigging of the electoral registration rules in favour
of Mr Mugabe's ruling party, does the Government have any confidence
that this election in March can produce a fair democratic outcome
in Zimbabwe?
(Baroness Amos) First of all, can I say that the MDC
are going to court today to challenge some of the provisions which
have been made in that new electoral law. We are, of course, waiting
to see the outcome of that challenge. What we, as a Government,
are doing and will be doing with our European Union partners,
with our Commonwealth partners and with the United States is clarifying
exactly what needs to happen for us as an international community
to be able to judge that the elections are free and fair. I think
it is extremely important that in the run up to the elections
we have been saying to the Government of Zimbabwe that it is very
important that observers are there in advance to meet the concerns
which have been expressed internationally about violence and intimidation,
if this does not happen and if international observers are only
allowed in to Zimbabwe at the very last minute then I think it
is important that we have very clear standards against which we
can judge, as an international community, whether we have considered
those elections to be free and fair. We have a very good model
to work from which is the SADC model which was agreed by the SADC
parliamentarians which make it absolutely clear the basis on which
they consider that elections should be run in the Southern African
region. I think it is very important that those kinds of very
good standards are coming from within the Southern African region
itself.
11. Would you agree that if the present level
of violence and intimidation against the opposition party continues
and if Mr Mugabe is able to get his way substantially in bringing
into law the present registration proposals, if that was the situation
the election would be fatally flawed in terms of being a fair
and proper democratic mandate for whoever is successful?
(Baroness Amos) The Committee will know that we have
and will continue to deplore the violence and intimidation which
we have seen in Zimbabwe. I think it is very important Bulawayo
in particular has been mentioned, although there has been violence
and intimidation in other areas as well. We were particularly
concerned in the Bulawayo context that the violence was not just
limited to one political party. We made it absolutely clear that
we deplore all political violence regardless of party. What we
have to be absolutely clear about is the basis on which we would
judge elections in Zimbabwe to have been free and fair. It is
very important that we do that with our Commonwealth partners,
with SADC, with the European Union, with the United States and
other countries which have expressed deep concern about this.
I would be very happy to come back to the Committee at the point
at which we have looked at all of those guidelines and we have
made some decisions with our partners following, for example,
the CMAG meeting next week, following the meeting which is happening
today between Presidents Muluzi and Chissano where they are going
to talk about the situation in Zimbabwe, following the meeting
which the SADC security organisation is having in Luanda next
week. It is very important that all of those processes come together
and as an international community we have an agreed basis on which
to judge the outcome of those elections and I will be very happy
to come back to the Committee once we have done that.[1]
Sir John Stanley
Chairman: Obliged.
12. Do you anticipate, Minister, that Britain
and other members of the international community may wish to reach
a judgment before the elections take place as to whether or not
the outcome can be regarded remotely as being fair and democratic?
Clearly the international community will reach a judgment after
the event but do you anticipate from the remarks you have just
made the international community might take the view, even before
the election takes place, given whatever goes through the Zimbabwe
Parliament on registration, given the level of violence and intimidation,
that the election still to be held cannot be regarded as being
a proper democratic expression of opinion in Zimbabwe?
(Baroness Amos) I think that the international community
will want to set some standards against which it will make that
judgment but would have to think very carefully about making those
judgments even before an election had taken place.
13. Could you clarify a point in relation to
international observers. Is it your understanding or not that
Mr Mugabe's latest announcement includes a specific ban on observers
from Britain?
(Baroness Amos) I think that I must put a caveat to
the Committee which is that my understanding is partly as a result
of what is reported in the newspapers and partly as a result of
what we are hearing from our own staff on the ground in Zimbabwe
but what is coming out of Zimbabwe continues to be a little unclear.
My understanding is that the Government of Zimbabwe have done
two things. They have said that the election monitors will be
Zimbabwean public servants, that election observers can include
international observers from the Commonwealth, from SADC and other
African countries and also from Europe but not from the European
Union. That is my understanding today as a result of the reports
which have been coming out as a result of the statement made by
President Mugabe. We are still waiting for confirmation of that
from our High Commission in Harare.
14. Minister, would you be able to give the
Committee a follow up note, as soon as possible, when the position
is clarified, as to whether or not the Zimbabwean Government is
making a ban on observers from Britain or indeed from any other
EU country?
(Baroness Amos) I will happily do that.[2]
15. Thank you. Could I just follow this a little
bit further. If Britain was singled out for a unique ban amongst
the members of the EU on sending observers to Zimbabwe, do you
consider the response of the British Government would be in the
context of the European Common Foreign and Security Policy that
the EU should take a position that if one individual Member State
is going to be banned from sending observers then no EU Member
State should send observers to this election or do you think the
British Government's response would be "It is better that
there are some EU Member States who send observers to this election
and though the ban, say, on Britain is unacceptable, it would
be better overall for the EU to have some Member States represented
as observers at the election"?
(Baroness Amos) Our interest is in ensuring that the
people of Zimbabwe are able to exercise their democratic right
in a way which allows them to express that right in a situation
where they are free from harassment and intimidation. If the Government
of Zimbabwe say to the British Government "We do not want
any British citizens to be part of an international election observer
team", I think we would go back to look at the core part
of our policy which is to work to ensure that the people of Zimbabwe
are able to exercise their democratic right in a way that is free
and fair and we would use that as the test.
Chairman
16. Just one point of clarification. Would you
confirm, Minister, that the press reports this morning, which
you say you have relied on, state specifically that Britons have
been excluded from that observing process?
(Baroness Amos) There is one press report that I have
seen which states that but the information that I have coming
out from the High Commission in Harare is not as clear as that,
which is why I am unable to give the Committee a definitive answer
in relation to that.
17. It would be consistent with the attacks
on Britain made at the Victoria Falls Conference recently?
(Baroness Amos) It would be consistent with the attacks
on Britain which have been a consistent part of the Government
of Zimbabwe's attitude to the British Government.
Mr Hamilton
18. Minister, the International Crisis Group
has called for Milosevic treatment for Robert Mugabe. Now because
of its historical links with Zimbabwe, Britain is constrained
in its capacity to provide assistance to the remaining independent
media and political parties in Zimbabwe. To what extent is the
EU able to provide such assistance to democratic forces in Zimbabwe?
(Baroness Amos) Can you clarify when you say assistance
what form of assistance you are talking about?
19. I am assuming not just moral support but
obviously financial assistance and assistance to them by lobbying
the Zimbabwe Government, saying that they should indeed allow
an independent media and an independent democratic opposition?
(Baroness Amos) Well, the British Government have
consistently made it clear to the Government of Zimbabwe, and
we have not been popular for doing this, that we think there should
be an independent media, that there should be an independent judiciary
because these are all institutions which are an important part
of a transparent democracy. Our European Union partners have done
the same. Through the Abuja discussions and the discussions that
the Commonwealth team had in the follow up visit to Harare this
was made clear also. I think this was something that we have made
clear in our bilateral relations with the Government of Zimbabwe
as well as making clear through our involvement in other international
processes.
1 See Evidence, page 17. Back
2
See Evidence, page Ev16. Back
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