Examination of Witnesses (Questions 480
- 489)
WEDNESDAY 10 APRIL 2002
JANE KENNEDY,
MR DAVID
WATKINS AND
MR BRIAN
WHITE
480. My interpretation might be wrong but from
your opening statement you seemed reluctant that there should
be an add-on in sentencing when it was paramilitary links that
were connected with criminal activity. Am I wrong there? You certainly
said that it was difficult to divide the two areas up from each
other, but obviously an add-on (because this type of counterfeiting,
extortion, etcetera, was related to paramilitary activity) might
to some of us seem to be quite a relevant matter.
(Jane Kennedy) If I could put it this way: because
it is extremely difficult in many cases to prove membership or
involvement with paramilitary organisations, because of the nature
very often of the evidence that you are relying upon about individual's
activities, one of the reasons why the Task Force has become so
important in tackling the way in which paramilitaries raise funds
and the activities that they are engaged in is that you can deal
with them in the basic nature of the criminal work they are involved
in. You can disrupt that work, arrest them, charge them, convict
them for that activity and while, yes, it does not immediately
read across that a paramilitary has been caught in the act of
smuggling and been prosecuted, as far as the courts are concerned
this individual has been caught as a smuggler and is dealt with
as a smuggler. Where an individual is involved in an act of terrorism
or is engaged in terrorism and it can be proven, then it will
be dealt with under the legislation that already exists.
481. It is whether there should be something
extra involved for something that is a criminal action because
of the links that it then has with terrrorist activities. I have
got a bit of a feeling that you might not be willing to go down
that road because there are some ways in which it might be seen
as interfering with the peace process, that the more that gets
brought forward in terms of the measures having paramilitary connections
with them, the more political difficulties that might raise about
the involvement of political parties who are close to terrrorist
organisations.
(Jane Kennedy) I would very quickly rebut that. There
is no view within Government of that at all. As I say again, Chairman,
it is difficult to respond to this question when I have not got
any evidence that there is a problem here. If you have a specific
suggestion or proposal that you are offering I would take it away
and consider it. As it stands at this moment in time, as I said
at the beginning of my answer to you, I would just say I am not
aware that there is a problem and the scheduled offences statistics
show that they get longer sentences so, in fact, the judges do
bear in mind any aggravation.
482. It is whether there specifically should
be an aggravated factor that is added to it when it is counterfeiting,
extortion, etcetera, activities being engaged in, almost distinct
from a second consideration under other legislation.
(Jane Kennedy) There are a number of ways of answering
that. The first thing I would say to you is in the many conversations
I have with the Police about how can we legislate to make their
job easier, this has never once been raised by police officers
that I have discussed it with. From that starting point they have
not raised it as an issue. I was aware that the Committee considered
this and it is one of the concerns of members of the Committee
but before I considered going down the route of introducing offences
aggravated by terrrorist activity, I would want to be convinced
that there was a problem that needed to be dealt with because
you would be into a very difficult area. The kind of evidence
that you would need to be drawing upon is very difficult to use
in a court. You would be talking about intelligence sources and
intelligence material that is impossible in many circumstances
to offer as evidence. It is not the simple solution that you are
proposing.
Mr Tynan
483. It would appear that there is considerable
frustration at the present time over the fact there is no extradition
agreement for fiscal crime with the Republic Ireland. What value
would you see in the proposed European Arrest warrant for law
enforcement in Northern Ireland?
(Jane Kennedy) The Republic of Ireland have recently
amended their domestic legislation to take into account the European-wide
terrorist legislation and as a result the same piece of legislation
came into effect here on 20 March on the same day as the Conventions
came into force in both the UK and Ireland, so the new provisions
are now in place. I accept that had not previously been done.
That was simply a matter of both countries having their legislation
at the right point. It now being in place and it now being in
effect in both countries, I expect that it will be of benefit.
484. So an extradition agreement exists at the
present time?
(Jane Kennedy) Yes.
485. That is without the European Arrest Warrant
being implemented?
(Jane Kennedy) The legislation now being in existence,
we can now extradite individuals from the Republic of Ireland
and vice versa for fiscal crimes.
486. What resources are dedicated by the Northern
Ireland Office and the Organised Crime Task Force to tracking
paramilitary fund raising and associated organised crime in other
jurisdictions?
(Jane Kennedy) The resources that we commit to the
Organised Crime Task Force through the Northern Ireland Office
are largely the commitment of official support for the Task Force
and my own commitment of time and effort. We have a small publicity
budget but apart from that financial resources are limited. That
is because the role of the Task Force is a strategic one, not
an operational one. Clearly the operational agencies have the
resources that they need to carry out their functions and we as
a Task Force invest a significant amount of official support at
all levels. The Task Force has a significant amount of senior
officials from the Department who are full members of the Task
Force and they also assist and run the expert groups and subgroups
of the Task Force.
487. Thank you very much.
(Jane Kennedy) One of the memoranda we sent you would
have given you the detail of who was involved and at what level.
Mark Tami
488. What is being done to encourage and nurture
public support in Northern Ireland for the Organised Crime Task
Force and the Assets Recovery Agency, bearing in mind that a lot
of these crimes are seen to be victimless in that everybody gains
with cheaper fuel and cheaper cigarettes? How are you countering
that sort of perception?
(Jane Kennedy) The Northern Ireland Office has for
some time conducted omnibus surveys as far as public opinion in
Northern Ireland. This January we introduced a series of questions
into that survey which will test public opinion. For example public
awareness of the Organised Crime Task Force is one of the questions
asked and awareness of the role of the Task Force and awareness
of organised crime as a problem. The initial findings, which we
will not be publishing until June because that is the regular
publishing of information, are very encouraging in that of those
that answered, a significant number were aware of the Task Force,
and of those that were aware there was almost total support for
the Task Force. What is also interesting is the way in which the
public is beginning to identify issues like drugs, protection,
racketeering, counterfeit goods as being mainly associated with
organised gangs. Obviously you need to build from year to year
those kind of research figures but that is encouraging. One of
the other findings (again the full details will be published later)
I will share with you is that 50 per cent of those who said they
were aware of the Task Force said that they would be prepared
to report organised criminal activity where they saw it which
I think in the context within which we are working and the concerns
we would have about public acceptance or awareness of organised
crime is very encouraging.
Chairman
489. Minister, Mr Watkins, and Mr White, thank
you very much, as always, for coming. It is a pleasure to see
you. I hope you do not find it an ordeal because we are on the
same side.
(Jane Kennedy) Thank you. I look forward to receiving
your transcript.
Chairman: We will send you the transcript of
the Home Office evidence.
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