Examination of Witness (Questions 54-59)
BILLY BRAGG
THURSDAY 7 MARCH 2002
Chairman
54. Billy Bragg, thanks for coming along.
(Mr Bragg) My pleasure.
55. It is good of you to fit us in on your world
tour, two gigs in one day!
(Mr Bragg) The guest list is full I am afraid.
56. I was going to try that in a moment on behalf
of my son. Westminster Palace in the morning and Shepherd's Bush
Empire in the evening is not a bad day for anybody. You see what
we are about, we are looking at the whole business of patronage
and appointments. We wanted to talk to you because you have been
a vigorous attacker of the whole patronage system and we wanted
to have a conversation with you about that. Do you want to say
anything to kick off?
(Mr Bragg) Very briefly, yes. It would be well known
to anybody who followed my career that I am involved in political
activity on behalf of one party, the Labour Party. I have to stress
that everything that I have done about politics, whether it has
been in the United Kingdom, the United States of America or else
where round the world, has been about participation of the democratic
process. That, to me, seems to be the best way to take society
forwards. I have had incredible arguments and I have taken a lot
of criticism from activists who believe that a more revolutionary
path is the only way to change society, both in the 1980s, and
presently with the anti-globalisation movement. There is a strong
thread that believes you can only change the world by smashing
up branches of McDonalds. I happen to believe if you want to change
the world you would the better off organising a trade union in
McDonalds. The way to change things is to make those people that
have power, be they in government or in multinational corporations,
accountable to the citizens of states, accountable to the employees
of multinationals and accountable to the communities in which
local government and multinational corporations operate. That
is just what I want to say. Almost exclusively the political activity
that I have done has been about trying to encourage people to
participate in the democratic process.
57. We are looking at who these people are who
get to run things. As you heard from the Commissioner of Public
Appointments just now there are 30,000 of these appointments,
of which she looks and regulates 12,000, or so, of them. We have
to find some way to run these bodies. I am not sure whether you
would argue that we have to bring these inside the democratic
elected process in some way. In asking you that question, can
I put this to you, if we did that, if we said that all of these
bodies have to be democratic and elected would that not exclude
the vast majority of the population taking part in them, when
you consider that, I think, it is 1.5 per cent of the people of
this country who belong to a political party. If we really are
civic activists do we not have to try and find ways of getting
all of these other people into the process of running things somehow?
(Mr Bragg) Clearly there is a difficulty there. I
think the perspective that you just offered, Chairman, is from
the present state, from the standing start with the appointments
the way they are, how do we inspire people to want to be part
of those? I have been very proactive in the debate about the reform
of the House of Lords and I think that is such a high profile
issue that it will get the attention of the electorate, whether
they are particularly party political or particularly interested
in standing for office. If we could reform the House of Lords
in a way that included people from outside of the Westminster
circle that would send an immediate message to the electorate
that the present reform programme is about bringing people in
from outside. To begin by going out and advertising for people
to join a committee or take part I think that is difficult from
a standing start. If you can begin at the very top, in the heart
of Westminster, at the centre of our democratic process, whereby
you can show that people from outside of the Westminster circle
are coming into the centre of political power through a process
of a representative Second Chamber then I think you can begin
to allow that idea to permeate throughout the way government is
administrated. I think that is a key issue, because the reverse
is to try and engage people at committee level, at local level,
and my understanding is that if you want to step outside of the
people who are members of political parties—the usual suspects—that
is the problem from a standing start. If you can begin at the
pinnacle and draw people in that is a better way to try and re-invigorate
the whole process.
58. Just listening to Rennie Fritchie, whose
job it is to go out and get people interested in public appointments,
getting to groups like Asian women, people who are really not
involved at all in running organisations, I have a sense that
if we could get people included beyond the usual suspects, also
people who are not simply coming through the party system, if
I can put this way, and engage people like you in doing some of
the work that she is trying to do with some of these groups by
showing how it is possible, instead of just saying, that is all
in the air of patronage, that it is not reputable, that is not
stuff we want to get involved in. If we did not just have the
Rennie Show, but if we had the Rennie and Billy Show we could
really turn people on!
(Mr Bragg) There is a problem in that, Chairman, I
look—no disrespect to you all—at you in your suits
and ties and I sit here in my Clash t-shirt. What I am saying
is, if I were a Muslim woman and I looked at the body politic
as represented where would I see myself. I would not see myself
there at all. That is just an example. I do not really see myself
represented, in fact the majority of us do not see ourselves represented.
That is why a reform of the Lords, that draws people in from the
regions, that allows local political parties to draw in not just
their own members but also to put people on the list, local renowned
people, teachers, a headmaster, a nurse, a local social activist,
something like that, to try and draw those people in so that they
become visible on our televisions then people can see their identity,
their lives, their background reflected in the body politic and
then people will think, maybe I can do this. At the moment, because
of the formality of the situation, because of the reality of who
becomes Members of Parliament I think there is a problem there
and when people do tune in and they see the same kind of talking
head and as the political debate becomes narrower, as we now live
in a less ideological age, then the distinction between the parties
are blurred for a lot of people, people who are semi-engaged in
politics, and it becomes much of a much. I think that is the problem
of visibility, of seeing yourself as someone that could be addressed
through the Lords reform.
Mr Wright
59. Some of us wear t-shirts too.
(Mr Bragg) I know, but I have never seen you in your
Clash T-shirt!
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