Examination of Witnesses (Questions 29
- 39)
MONDAY 3 DECEMBER 2001
MR DANIEL
HENDERSON, MR
STEVE INCH,
MR GEORGE
THOM, MS
SHIRLEY LINTON,
MR STEPHEN
DUNLOP, DR
JOHN C SHELDON
AND MR
GERRY BAKER
Chairman
29. Good afternoon, thank you, again, for your
attendance. Please feel free at any time if you wish to answer
any questions. It is very important for us to get out of the House
of Commons for sessions like this to see what is happening on
the ground is actually what we are told that is happening, or
not. We are very grateful to you for coming along to give evidence
to us. Could I start off by asking you, Mr Thom, to briefly give
your view on the Millennium Link project and the benefits it has
brought to the area?
(Mr Thom) On behalf of the local authorities
you have a written submission. I would be happy to give a very
brief overview of it. Obviously given the breadth of the project
each representatives here can answer specific questions about
each of their specific areas. There has been a long-standing commitment
to the canal by local authorities. There have been a number of
longer term projects and local plans that were focused on the
canal over a period of time. The canal has always been viewed
as an important part of the infrastructure. Local people use the
canal and areas round the canal and it has always been our intention
to use it as part of the green space and part of the leisure facilities
within each area. The history of the canal dates back to the start
of the industrial age and it has had significance as part of the
economic development for transport at that time. It is now being
used and we would like to see it being used as part of the economic
infrastructure for leisure and tourism activity and for local
people from a wider area. Importantly, working in partnership
with British Waterways we have had a role in trying to ensure
that the project came in on time. I think we were all pleased
to be part of the project. British Waterways have done a very
good job to take the job forward with very complex budgetary and
planning arrangements. Through this period we have all worked
with British Waterways to enable that to happen. The biggest challenge,
to a greater extent, is what happen next and we certainly see
the development of the canal as part of the infrastructure to
stimulate private sector investment. The local authorities appreciate
that we are not a position to generate jobs per se, that
encouraging private sector investment on or round the canal could
and will bring significant job opportunities. At that point I
would just like to conclude on behalf of the submission, but we
would be happy to open up to individual questions.
30. Perhaps somebody would like to say something
about job creation potential in the longer term?
(Mr Inch) I am Steve Inch from Glasgow City Council
and I am from the Department of Development and Regeneration Services,
which is the planning, property and economic regeneration bit
of the council. As George Thom said, the canal has been seen as
a bit of a forgotten friend over the years, certainly in Glasgow,
largely because of its "remainder" status. We as a council
have taken the Millennium Link project quite seriously. We recently
produced a city plan which gives some priority to the north of
the city and we have now taken that forward through the production
of a draft canal strategy, which will go to the council early
next year. That strategy breaks the canal into bits and looks
at the particular regeneration opportunities along each stretch
of the canal. We see this creates from the Stockingfield Junction
to Port Dundas quite a strategic piece of the Glasgow infrastructure.
We are already in discussion with the British Waterways Board
as to how we can take forward some of the employment opportunities
from the stadium down to Port Dundas. We are in negotiations with
a private developer who is building approximately 100,000 square
feet along the canal. We are looking at the employment opportunities
for this disconnected piece of canal and we are in discussion
with Scottish Enterprise in Glasgow about the potential to link
the canal, the proposed railway station and the potential extension
of the Science Park. We are in discussion about taking forward
a business village. In employment terms there are six straightforward
commercial and industrial opportunities which between them could
create well over 2,000 jobs if they all come forward. The other
thing we are looking at is how we use environmental improvements
along the tow part as training and employment opportunities, which
was hinted at in the questioning before. We are working on a programme
now which will last for two years and creates two training projects
which each will employ 16 long term unemployed people. That has
been funded through the City Council, Scottish Enterprise, the
European Social Fund and the British Waterways Board. That is
aimed at doing fairly straightforward and environmental improvement
work. We are seeing some long term development potential in terms
of site developments and some short term job creation activities
to environmental improvements.
(Mr Baker) In respect of the City of Edinburgh Council
I would certainly support the submission that has just been made.
We see the canal as being at one point a liability, disused and
really overlooked by the local communities through which it passes
into what could be considered a considerable asset. The three
main areas that we see as important are, first of all, in regeneration
terms. There is a fantastic new project which reinstates the canal
through a major housing scheme on the outskirts of Edinburgh of
which the local community have taken ownership of this feature
and that will create considerable improvements. When seen in the
context of the new shopping development, the new leisure and cultural
facilities provided in Wester Hailes it is a real asset in providing
a further facility in a regeneration area. Also the canal can
be seen as a tourist facility. We hope that, in partnership with
British Waterways, to be seen as part of a network. Here at the
end of the link we certainly see the tourist potential for an
attractive water feature at the end of the network, and also a
very vibrant facility which will link Edinburgh to Glasgow. It
is particularly important that each tourist area has a variety
of tourist attractions, both main and subsidiary, to produce visitor
spend and produce an attractive tourist environment, undoubtedly
the Edinburgh Quay development will provide that. Finally we see
the development of this facility to be a link with the Edinburgh
Business Centre, the financial centre round about the conference
centre and new developments there, building on the attractive
water features and, in fact, providing new office accommodation,
new mixes of accommodation and development which will really enhance
business development within the City of Edinburgh.
(Mr Dunlop) Clearly in Falkirk we believe we have
a very special position in relation to the canal as a whole. The
Wheel will be the hub, we believe, of the canal for visitors centres,
et cetera, but also for economic development, that is the point
that George Thom made. Certainly our community has seen this coming
for a long time, ever since then it is clear to see it through
documents such as the strategic community plan and a structured
plan. The local communities put themselves very, very high in
terms of importance locally and recognise the value that it will
bring generally to Falkirk as an area. One term that is continually
used in our area is repositioning Falkirk, certainly we see the
Wheel as being the mechanism to do just that. Obviously the 4,000
jobs that have been spoken about in many of the submissions round
1,000 of those though are anticipated in the Falkirk Council area.
Once again, we have a tremendous amount to benefit from. George
Thom mentioned the issue of partnership, we believe we played
a very strong partnership role, particularly in relation to planning
and forward thinking and how we would manage all of developments
across the canal, and those are reflected in a number of documents.
(Mr Henderson) Dan Henderson, West Dunbartonshire
Council, at the risk of, perhaps, repeating some of the comments
that have been made by my colleagues here, West Dunbartonshire
Council certainly see this as a great opportunity for development
in and round the canal. There is significant expenditure currently
in the Clydebank Shopping Centre to completely regenerate Clydebank
Shopping Centre and provide a new vibrant shopping centre. The
fact that the canal passes right through the shopping centre,
as you could see this morning, is perhaps a bit of added value.
It can be a new thing, something different that will attract people
to come and shop at Clydebank rather than go to Brae Head, if
the chair will let me away with that one. It is also the case
that there are numerous brownfield sites in the Clydebank area
in particular and hopefully there are going to be significant
developments alongside the Clydebank Riverside—mixed use
development that will provide not only leisure facilities but
also new housing, and more importantly industrial and commercial
developments. The Clydebank area, as everyone knows, has a proud
history in relation to shipping, perhaps not so much along canals
but across the Atlantic Ocean and various other seas, but there
is certainly scope for considerable development in and round Clydebank.
There has also been discussion about the possibility of a link
being continued on and up the River Leven to Loch Lomond and,
perhaps, there is an opportunity for added value there. We will
shortly be commissioning a report on the River Leven which will
link in things like flood prevention to the possibility of making
the River Leven navigable. There is, perhaps, the opportunity
you could bring a boat from the east of Scotland through the canal
and right up to Loch Lomond.
(Dr Sheldon) The West Lothian stretch is different
because the canal is passing through countryside within the central
belt. The Council has great expectations that there could be significant
jobs created in the long term as a consequence of the canal being
redeveloped. In terms of the community return that is what the
Council was really anticipating, it has happened, and it has added
value because of the tourist attractions.
(Ms Linton) I am from North Lanarkshire Council and
although we are a very large authority our stretch along the canal
is rather small, only about three kilometres to the east of here.
Coming through from Glasgow it is the first rural area, it does
pass through an area of natural resource, which we want to keep
and preserve and, therefore, we are not looking for development
alongside the canal. Any development we encourage will focus on
the basin area at Auchinstarry and will be tourism related types.
What we are trying to do is harness businesses to the area and
direct them to existing settlements, to boost those settlements.
Really just to emphasise that whilst the canal passes through
a number of built up areas that will benefit from built development
it is not all that way and there is some very nice natural areas
we should preserve as well as focus for development.
(Mr Thom) I just want to comment about the specifics
in East Dunbartonshire, there are a number of potential development
opportunities. Kirkintilloch offers the most significant pay back,
it is not just the job creation, it is for the regeneration of
Kirkintilloch. Kirkintilloch relied on the canal for its worth
and the demise of the canal has mirrored the demise of Kirkintilloch
and its social activity. The canal is seen very much as a focus
point. The opening of the canal has helped the investment of the
new Learning Centre you have seen this morning and that would
undoubtedly have gone somewhere else if the canal had not opened
up. That is focussing our minds. We have a larger initiative at
proposal stage now which will bring significant investment, upwards
of £40 million, to the area, and the canal is central to
that. The council has committed itself to seeing Kirkintilloch
as a key visitor attraction and changing the way Kirkintilloch
appears to the outside world. There are significant opportunities
there and the canal is central to them.
Anne McKechin
31. I would like to ask one general question
and, perhaps, you can give a specific example and some comments
from the representative of Glasgow City Council, generally were
the local authority deterred, to any extent, by the long term
nature of some of the perceived benefits of developing the canal?
I am also thinking of where there is no direct commercial benefit
or no direct conservation and environmental area of interest,
if you think of areas like Milton in Glasgow, and there has been
no degree at present of community enrollment as occurred in Wester
Hailes. How do you see the on-going investment in the development
of that and problems which might incur?
(Mr Inch) I would agree that in Glasgow the level
of community involvement is not as much as it should be. We are
trying to press that through the enrollment of the communities
in some significant projects. I think our submission mentioned
the potential re-establishment of the Ruchill Golf Course and
the community trust. What we have tried to do with that project
is not simply re-open a nine hole golf course but use a vacant
piece of land as an extension to a youth golf course and a training
facility. We are working with the Waterways Board to try and sort
any access between the two. That is probably an exception to the
rule. It has certainly been discussed at the Glasgow Social Inclusion
Partnership, there have been a number progress reports and I would
like to think we can get closer to the community. The fact that
we are establishing two training projects which are aimed at recruiting
residents will increase that level of involvement.
Mr Carmichael
32. Given that we are talking here about a fairly
long term nature of the perceived benefits and that British Waterways
in Scotland have what they term an valuation strategy for monitoring
activity, do the individual councils have any such evaluation
strategy or do you use the favoured term "performance indicators"
in places to assess the impact of the canal and job creation in
particular?
(Mr Thom) The important thing for us is that we are
working in partnership with British Waterways, we are a steering
group which is looking at the on-going development. I think we
can probably tighten up on the performance indicators relating
to the job creation market and that whole package. I am encouraged
that we are still at the table working with British Waterways.
From our point of view we are actively involved in specific partnership
with them in Kirkintilloch, the truth of that is whether it actually
comes off or not, whether it happens. From our point of view the
structures are in place to keep us at the table and keep us working.
(Mr Dunlop) If I can comment, linking both those questions
together, because there is a similarity there, the long-term nature
of this I do not think is perceived as necessarily a bad thing.
The scale of the project in the Falkirk Council area is such that
inevitably it is going to be a long term development. You have
had the advantage of the Wheel and an awful lot of work done recently
and a lot of community participation. I think people recognise
there is a long term picture to it, but I think there is an immediate
benefit. From the opening last year and from all of the current
activity people are going up and having a look at the moment,
I think there is a real sense of something is happening right
now. I do not think, again, people fully appreciate the potential
scale of developments that could come along.
33. In five, 10 or 15 years' time will you be
able to point to X and Y number of jobs and say these relate to
the development?
(Mr Dunlop) I think that would be a reasonable thing
to expect us to do. Our plan is very specific and our nature of
regeneration is very specific and we need to measure one against
the other. What may be more difficult to measure would be the
wider spin-offs that we believe will be generated, perhaps not
immediately, next to the canal but obviously benefiting Falkirk
Council as a whole. It would be reasonable for us to measure exactly
some elements of the employment benefit.
(Mr Baker) On the specific point of evaluation, in
terms of the involvement of the private sector, basic information
like planning permissions, local surveys along the canal, company
start-ups and the number of people employed in different training
schemes and different programmes will allow us on a year-by-year
basis to identify jobs and employment opportunities which have
been generated by the canal. Those formal structures are being
put in place by local authorities in connection with British Waterways.
I think we will be able to evaluate the impact of the canal on
this project upon the development and we will be able to tell
you how many jobs have been created, what GDPs have been created,
what type of jobs and hopefully, and that will give us a good
idea of the impact of the canal. I am fairly confident that through
a number of surveys and planning permissions and basis statistics
we can provide that information for you. I think that is being
done.
Mr Lazarowicz
34. I am sure everyone realises the importance
of assessing jobs that have been caused by the canal as opposed
to simply being situated by the canal. There may be some sort
of temptation or tendency to ascribe any development near to the
canal to the presence of the canal when, in fact, the development
might have happened anyway. I am sure people will be aware of
that and be able to distinguish those which are geographically
situated by a canal and those which are caused by the development.
Can I ask a question I raised earlier? (I am sure everyone here
will have heard my question to British Waterways about the Scotland-wide
coordination of potential benefits.) I wonder if any or all of
the local authorities have any comments on the degree to which
we can ensure that the benefits across Scotland are maximised?
I have in my mind there will be economic activity, tourist activity,
walking, cycling, for example, which really does need to be coordinated
and maximised across Scotland level. That is an area where so
far I have some doubts about, as to how far that potential is
being utilised. Can you assure me on this and or tell me how you
envisage the future in this respect?
(Mr Thom) We have certainly talked about the marketing
and the impact. I think you are right, we cannot untangle the
whole package. In Kirkintilloch we have a proposal for a significant
investment will will include the canal. We anticipate 1,000 jobs
will be created out of that over a seven year period, some of
those will be linked directly to the canal but some of them are
part of a much wider package, because the canal is not the only
thing that is happening either here or in Edinburgh or in Falkirk.
I think it is important to make that distinction, it is important
to be able to track that. Certainly part of our proposal and our
strategy for the canal involves the local tourist board and involves
the local enterprise company, so those elements are contained
at a local level. It is important that some of the projects that
are involved in this have come off in order to make the canal
feasible. There is a much wider issue about marketing, taking
the canal through Scotland.
(Mr Dunlop) There certainly is. We have recognised
a number of changes in tourism activity across Scotland and certainly
Scotland at the moment is going through a transition. I think
it is important for all of us to recognise the vital role that
they will have to play in national terms of making sure that the
benefits and the investments so far are fully maximised. There
has been work, perhaps, it is more for SE colleagues later on
who can speak more fully about this, but there has been work on-going
over the last 10 months to look at a national approach to marketing
the canal and how that would operate and dovetail into local action
plans. That work is still in progress. I think as a local authority,
for us, I would guess we would all say the same thing, it is important
to make sure that a leadership vacuum is not created in driving
the national picture forward, whereas we will all be working very
hard locally with British Waterways and other partner agencies
on our own patch. Certainly locally we have a very strong partnership
with British Waterways in marketing, not just the Wheel site but
to link that into other opportunities that exist in our area.
I do take the point that there is an issue about how collectively
we behave and act in national marketing terms.
Mr Lyons
35. If I wanted information about the canal
who do I contact for that?
(Mr Dunlop) My understanding is that it would be British
Waterways at this time.
36. When will that change?
(Mr Dunlop) I think British Waterways will lead on
the activity on the canal. For associated activities in any particular
area you may find there are more expanded and more integrated
programmes. For example at the Wheel site you will find out all
about the Wheel and all about the canal and you will be able to
find out what happens locally. I would guess there would be partnership
arrangements of that nature across the canal.
37. No one central body does coordinating for
the whole of the canal?
(Mr Dunlop) I think Visit Scotland in terms of marketing
the whole canal, it is their job, we could not market the whole
canal on their behalf, that is probably their function with SE
to do that. That would break down into more localised plans.
Mr Joyce
38. Can I just ask if you have had any opposition
or any sources of reluctance, inertia, to get involved in the
project or to conform with what Mr Dunlop has described as very
specific plans in relation to the canal development?
(Mr Thom) I think for East Dunbartonshire at a community
planning level there has been enthusiasm for the canal. At individual
projects, when you shut a bridge it creates some local difficulties,
you get some reaction to the actual performance of the work but
generally the agencies we have been involved with certainly been
very positive.
(Mr Baker) This is an important issue in terms of
how that canal is in place and the Link is in place. There is
clearly a raised expectation from local communities who want to
use the canal and benefit from the canal. Certainly in terms of
such things as footpaths or security or safety it will present
a challenge to the local authorities to make sure that they work
closely with British Waterways to make sure it is seen as an asset
and it does not fall back into a liability. In terms of job creation
it clearly places a challenge on local authorities to find further
resources, to work in partnership with private public sectors,
to actually maximise the potential this link provides. It is a
challenge and as I am sure you are aware local authorities resources
are tight. We would like to think that given the fact we now have
this fantastic resource on our doorstep we can rise to that challenge
and hopefully maximise the potential.
Mr Robertson
39. A question I asked Waterways was to do with
safety. You mentioned safety and obviously in my own area that
is where most of the complaints are from, I ask you the same question,
what are you doing about setting up some kind of help line, support,
that does not necessarily mean the police do everything?
(Mr Inch) I think there have been isolated complaints,
it is not so much about the project, it is just about the disruption
caused by the work, and at Blairdarie there has obviously been
a particular difficulty with it. In terms of the suggestions made
earlier about canal wardens, in Glasgow we ran a City Centre Representatives
project which is like a city centre warden service and we have
started to look at the possibility of a canal warden service run
along similar lines using the New Deal Programme along Glasgow
walks. We are aware there is an issue. Until the canal is better
used people still have fears about safety because it is not well
walked in certain parts of the City and I think wardens can provide
the sense that somebody is there watching over you, reporting
incidents and spotting damage to be repaired and things are sorted
out. We would like to take that forward. A large part depends
on whether the New Deal programme survives. That is an issue we
are aware of.
(Mr Henderson) Can I add to that and, perhaps, provide
Mr Joyce with an answer from a slightly different angle. There
was a tremendous amount of community support and interest in the
Clydebank area when the Millennium Link opened. There has been
a wee bit of opposition, not very much, perhaps much the same
as Steve has recorded here, about the disturbance in certain areas
when the work has been on-going. To go back to the original discussions
over funding, whilst our council had no opposition in principle
to the Millennium Link it was really a very difficult decision
to take just after local government reorganisation to become a
partner. At that time we were faced, probably like other authorities,
with some very difficult revenue and capital budget problems.
There was considerable debate within the council chamber and not
all members were entirely convinced that we should actually be
partners to the Millennium Link project at that time. However,
the council did recognise that if we did contribute there was
a risk that the project would not proceed and it took the decision
formally to be partners and I think, over the course of the next
few years, that will prove to be the correct decision.
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