Select Committee on Standards and Privileges Fifth Report

Annex vii13

Transcription of an interview by the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards with Mr Gray Kennady, accompanied by Mr Martin Bright, held on 4 September 2001

MR KENNADY: I will start by saying my name. My full name is Gray Benjamin Kennady. Kennady is K-e-n-n-a-d-y.

MS FILKIN: Thank you.

MR KENNADY: I arrived in this country in July 1969 from Iraq and I maintain my Indian nationality. I am here on a residential permit. During this period I believe I have not broken any rules. I have been ---- Frankly, although I am allowed a British nationality, I feel I am an Indian, but loyal to the laws of this country.

MS FILKIN: Yes, and you are loyal to your country.

MR KENNADY: I would like to stay as an Indian but not interfere in the politics of this country because I am here as a guest of their generosity. That is how I feel and how I have felt all along. I am curious sometimes about world affairs and read newspapers and come across ---- I started working in this country in 1972, an export office exporting to Iraq. In 1976 I suffered a heart attack and I had to stop working on medical grounds and then I also lost a little initiative. Politics interfered, British-Iraqi politics came. There was a suspension of trading with Iraq, in late 1970/80.

* * *

MR KENNADY: While operating my Export Office in the UK I was dealing with a person who was there having a small commission office also, so we were co-operating. I was here exporting and he was there negotiating with the various Government Departments because business was 100 per cent nationalised and you needed a local to go around. I had a friend there but when I stopped working in 1976 I did a little work part-time. This friend of mine came to the UK in 1981 and established an office here. He had piled on a lot of money. I started to work for him, previously we worked together.

MS FILKIN: His name?

MR KENNADY: Nadhmi Shakir Auchi. He is an Iraqi National. He came here in 1981. He had to come because Iraq was no longer safe for him politically and business wise. I was his closest friend. We had known each from 1954 before the revolutions of 1958 and after. Of course, while I was there in Iraq, I was not involved in politics because we were warned by our Indian Government to stay away from Iraqi politics. That was the situation, and I had no interest.

MS FILKIN: Mr Bright says he is coming.

MR KENNADY: I know, I asked him if he would come.

MS FILKIN: So when he comes, that is fine, you can bring him in.

MR KENNADY: I was waiting for him. We agreed to meet at a quarter past twelve.

MS FILKIN: He is coming.

MR KENNADY: I started working with him from 1981 onwards.

* * *

MR KENNADY: On 21 September 2000---- I rang him [Mr Nadhmi Shakir Auchi] before and he said "Come and see me on the 21st at five o'clock". I went there a little early. I did not get to see him until nearly twenty, twenty-five past five, he had someone there on the telephone. He was very busy on the phone. I had hardly walked in and the girl came and offered me tea. The phone rang, he picked it up and said "Hi, Keith". He said "Hi, Keith" and then silence because I think Keith was talking and he was listening. Then he said "Alright, I will send you my car". He asked "Now? Alright, I will send you my car", end of conversation. Then he buzzed the chauffeur. The chauffeur came and he told him in arabic "Go to the Foreign Office and bring Vaz" (no mister). That is very strange from Nadhmi. With names he is very mannerly. In the absence of the person he will not call him "Vaz", he will call him "Mr Vaz", especially to a chauffeur." But here he said "Keith", very close. I had heard about Keith. I had heard that Keith was having relations there. This first name basis made me believe that it was more than friendship. To tell the chauffeur "Go to the Foreign Office and bring me Vaz". The chauffeur said the words "Foreign Office" as a confirmation and as a question. He said "Yes, the Foreign Office". The chauffeur went. No specific pick-up was pointed out and from the manner of the chauffeur I believed the journey was made several times before.

I stayed a few minutes with Auchi but he started fiddling with paper and I knew we were not going to be talking because usually when we talk it takes ages, so I said "Okay, I think I had better leave. I will talk to you, make another appointment". I walked out of his office and I met Martin. Not this Martin. I met Martin Matthews at the reception and I told him "Keith's on his way", with I think a silly grin on my face. He said "Ah, Vazy again". Sorry, I said "He's name dropping". The first thing I told him was "He's name dropping again. Keith's on his way". "Ah", he said "Vazy again". There was laughter between us, we had a personal chat and I walked out of the office. The office is on the third floor, I came down, walked out. It was just coming to six o'clock, five minutes either way. I saw Auchi's car slowing down at the traffic lights to make a u-turn. I waved and the driver looked at me, we eyeballed at each other and grinned and I waved. There was Keith Vaz sitting in the back.

Madam, I have nothing against Mr Vaz, although I am angry with him. I have never met him, never had a word with him, but as an Asian, and he is an Asian represented in the Houses of Parliament, I think he should have been aware that here he was reducing a great deal of prestige. This man, he should have known as a very cagy person.

I saw that incident and I reported it to the Observer. Why I reported it is I read The Sunday Observer and there were errors there which said Keith Vaz was offered, appointed, did not take it, took it, all within a matter of five or six weeks in 1999, but I was aware that he was a director a year before that, 1998.

MS FILKIN: A director of who?

MR KENNADY: A director of one of the companies.

MS FILKIN: I see. Which company?

MR KENNADY: General Mediterranean. I will give you the documents to show you.


MR KENNADY: I rang the spokesman and I said "Charles...."

MR BRIGHT: This is a man called Charles Panayides.

MS FILKIN: He is the spokesman for Mr Auchi's company?


MR KENNADY: I knew him before he joined the company.

MS FILKIN: When were you first aware that Mr Vaz was made a director?

MR KENNADY: I was aware long before this incident, long before my sighting him.

MS FILKIN: But when?

MR KENNADY: A year before, or maybe nine months or so.

MS FILKIN: 1999?

MR KENNADY: Earlier than that. Earlier than that. I also know Norman Lamont was a Director.

MS FILKIN: I do not need to get into anybody else, I am only interested in Mr Vaz.

MR KENNADY: I saw him in September. Do you mind if I refer to -----

MS FILKIN: Not at all. This was 2000 when this incident took place?

MR KENNADY: I saw Keith Vaz personally for the first time in Auchi's car, on the evening of 21 September twenty yards away ----

MS FILKIN: 2000?

MR KENNADY: 2000. 21.9.2000, the evening, give or take five or ten minutes after six or before six in the vicinity not twenty yards away. The car was making a u-turn to stop at the kerb of the office.

MS FILKIN: Tell me when you first were aware of Mr Vaz's involvement?

MR KENNADY: I was aware over one year before that.


MR KENNADY: I was aware of that.

MS FILKIN: How did you become aware of that?

MR KENNADY: I do talk to some of the staff or some of the people who are associated.


MR KENNADY: Do not forget, these persons talk when they come around, "Oh, this man is getting big, he is now associating here and there". He himself is very good at name dropping. The word had spread around.

MS FILKIN: Was Mr Vaz being paid as a director?

MR KENNADY: I cannot prove it but I have asked the question and, yes, he was paid and the amount quoted to me by people associated with those office premises was £50,000 to £60,000.

MS FILKIN: In 1999?

MR KENNADY: Per year.


MR KENNADY: Paid per year.

MS FILKIN: Who told you that?

MR KENNADY: Staff and other people who have connections with the office.

MS FILKIN: Could you name them?

MR KENNADY: I cannot without their permission. They have commitments. I cannot say "One of the staff told me".

MS FILKIN: But they would be staff who would know, in your experience?

MR KENNADY: Staff who would know.

MS FILKIN: They would be reliable and that would be accurate?

MR KENNADY: Yes. I believe if they were pulled before you ----

MS FILKIN: I cannot pull them unless I have their names.

MR KENNADY: Let me get permission.

MS FILKIN: Thank you.

MR KENNADY: Or let me get angry enough.

MS FILKIN: Thank you.

MR BRIGHT: Can I just clarify something here, is that okay?

MS FILKIN: Yes, of course, anything to be helpful. All I am trying to get is an accurate record.

MR BRIGHT: Absolutely. The article that Mr Kennady is referring to in The Observer that spurred him to come and talk to us ----

MR KENNADY: Was 4 February.

MR BRIGHT: Was in February 2001. The information that he is referring to that is incorrect is information provided to us by Mr Panayides, Mr Auchi's spokesman. The point that I think Mr Kennady is trying to make is that he was angered by the fact that information had been provided that was incorrect.

MS FILKIN: And you then published it as if it was correct because you had been given it by a company spokesperson.

MR KENNADY: I rang Charles Panayides and I said "Since when did you become the spokesman?" and he said "No, I am not the spokesman". I said "Get your figures right before you say anything, remember there is someone watching you" and we joked and that was the end. He very reluctantly takes calls from me, he is afraid of the old man. That article and that spokesman's quote stuck with me. I went back to my records and I checked.


MR KENNADY: I said "No". I wanted to write a letter with the corrections to the two gentlemen but then I decided to pick up the phone and I rang and spoke to Antony Barnett first. I told him "At this stage I am Michael. You have no source of contact with me, I will contact you. Michael is not my name, it is for security reasons". I told him "Look, I have got some corrections to that". He said "Okay, that will be fine. I am going away on a trip but Martin will be coming back, I will brief him and you will have the same assurance from him". However, he did repeat "You have my word as far as I am committed but you will have to talk to him" and I said "Okay", but then I thought "Oh, this is silly". I said "Antony, can we agree for now I will give you my name, I will give you my address, I will give you my telephone number. For security reasons I will also tell you why I do not want it to be known, but between us, yes." I gave him my name, I gave him my telephone number and I gave him my home address. I said "I am dealing with a very dangerous person. I will tell you when we can sort something out". Then I talked to Martin and I told him the same thing, he gave me the same assurance, but I disclosed myself and we started to talk "Gray". I found it very strange, this "Michael". I did not waste time but it was not until the second call that I disclosed. I went and told him "Look, this is incorrect. Besides, I have seen Keith Vaz go to this man after his appointment". From the conversation I gathered that was not his first visit. The driver did not query whereabouts in the Foreign Office. The Foreign Office must be huge, they must have more than one gate, they must have a reception. To myself I said "this man knows where he is going, he does not need prompting, no questions", he just said 'Kharajia' and that was it.

MS FILKIN: And the man you had the joke with also confirmed that?

MR KENNADY: He said "Vazy again". The word "again" means he has been there before.

MS FILKIN: And his name, the man you joked with?

MR KENNADY: Without his permission I cannot.

MR BRIGHT: He is a director of one of the companies so he is easy enough to find.

MS FILKIN: If I can have his name. Have you got any other evidence of Mr Vaz's involvement in that company or in any other way in those companies?

MR KENNADY: Verbally from others, yes.

MR BRIGHT: There is also a document which Mr Kennady has shown me which clarifies this, or rather makes their explanation of when he became a director unbelievable.

MR KENNADY: The same mistakes have been in ----

MR BRIGHT: He was announced in the literature as a director far before the time he said.

MS FILKIN: If I could take copies of all of those, that would be useful.

MR KENNADY: Did you see Punch magazine surrounded by prominent ----

MR BRIGHT: That is the Paris Match.

MS FILKIN: Thank you. (Documents handed)

MR KENNADY: This is where I think he declares that Mr Tony Blair is a friend of his, is that correct?

MS FILKIN: I can read it anyway.

MR KENNADY: It is French.

MS FILKIN: I will just take copies.

MR KENNADY: Those copies are for you.

MS FILKIN: Those are for me, thank you.

MR KENNADY: You have my handwriting there.

MS FILKIN: Thank you.

MR KENNADY: This is a copy of a company, CIPAF, a subsidiary of General Mediterranean. There is one clarification. A trick has been played. There is Lord ----


MR KENNADY: This is Norman Lamont. That is the only correct entry. There is no discrepancy in the entry there. General Mediterranean, Mr Keith Vaz is not there. Norman Lamont is there.

MR BRIGHT: You have got the 1998 Annual Report there, that is key.

MR KENNADY: This is 1998.


MR KENNADY: Keith Vaz is there.

MS FILKIN: Yes. My problem with it is his explanation is that he was appointed but then he was appointed to his ministerial post and he resigned and he was never paid for that.

MR KENNADY: This is 1998.

MS FILKIN: Yes, I know.

MR KENNADY: He was appointed in 1999, okay? They claim that in 1999 the appointment and not accepting it was in April/May 1999 or even June 1999. This is a brochure signed by the Chairman, Nadhmi Auchi, but it is also supported by a qualification letter from the auditors, July 1999.

MS FILKIN: Yes, that is 1999.

MR KENNADY: No, in 1999 the auditors are confirming that these are the personnel in 1998.

MR BRIGHT: This is the difficult thing.

MS FILKIN: This is a problem about whether it is a financial year or whether it is ----

MR KENNADY: It says here December 15 1998.

MS FILKIN: Well, good.

MR KENNADY: You can have a copy of this or you can borrow it.

MS FILKIN: I can take a copy. My staff will do it while you are sitting there. Is there anything else that you think I ought to have a copy of because I will give it to them and they can get on with it.

MR KENNADY: I go back.


MR KENNADY: I suspect, from my suspicions and from information, that he was there in 1997, even 1996.

MS FILKIN: Have you got any ----

MR KENNADY: Nobody gives me 1997, 1997 is not on the premises, it has suddenly gone off.

MR BRIGHT: The accounts?

MR KENNADY: The accounts, yes.

MS FILKIN: I will be able to get those from Companies House if they have put them in.

MR BRIGHT: We have tried.

MR KENNADY: Now we have to be very careful. He is a director in GMH (UK). There are two, Mrs Filkin, GMH (UK) Ltd and there is GMH (SA) Luxembourg. Those two are very, very misleading.


MR KENNADY: This is a ploy which we will talk about at some other time. This is a ploy. I have gone to Companies House and checked for directorships of Mr Keith Vaz. He is a director in three. Two of them are charities.

MS FILKIN: That is right.

MR KENNADY: And one is Silver something or Silk something. There is no mention of that.

MS FILKIN: Are there any other documents that need to be copied?

MR KENNADY: I am trying hard to get 1997.

MS FILKIN: No, what I ----

MR KENNADY: This is 1996. There is a discrepancy about *** also.

MS FILKIN: That is not for me.

MR BRIGHT: Can I just say there is one other document that if you have got it there you should show it which is the Tucan Investments document, which is the company that Auchi owns which made a political donation.

MR KENNADY: I have not got that.

MR BRIGHT: Well I have got that.

MR KENNADY: I did not know you were going to restrict yourself to Mr Keith Vaz. I am sorry I went so far back ----

MS FILKIN: No, no.

MR KENNADY: ---- but I was telling you my association with Nadhmi.

MS FILKIN: That was all very interesting and I am glad to have it. My responsibility is only to look into complaints about Members of Parliament and, therefore, I have to focus on the Member of Parliament.

MR KENNADY: Good. I will have five minutes generalising.

MS FILKIN: Can I just give this to my staff so that is done. Is there anything else that needs photocopying, so that I can make sure we have got copies?

MR BRIGHT: What about the anniversary document because that also is ----

MR KENNADY: I have a present for you. (Document handed)

MS FILKIN: Goodness me.

MR BRIGHT: This poses serious questions to be asked about how this happened.

MR KENNADY: See the rear of it, Madam.

MS FILKIN: Yes, I am just having a look at it. I have had that referred to. I think you referred to it in your article.

MR BRIGHT: Yes. This is clearly extraordinary. We still have not quite found out how exactly one gets such a gift. I have never come across any of the other ----

MR KENNADY: The Iraqis are asking what has he done to deserve such honour.

MR BRIGHT: But the slight problem with it is it comes just before the French authorities actually issued their arrest warrant against Mr Auchi.

MR KENNADY: It was presented on 23 April 1999.

MR BRIGHT: So there is no reason in a sense that he should not have received such a gift at that point.

MS FILKIN: Because they might not have known.

MR KENNADY: Excuse me. To give him such a credential, or gift, what has he rendered to this country? This is an overseas company.

MS FILKIN: That is not a matter for me. It is only a matter for me if Mr Vaz has acted improperly or any other Member of Parliament.

MR KENNADY: Mr Vaz arranged this, for what purpose?

MS FILKIN: There is nothing against the rules for Mr Vaz to arrange for people to cheer a company on. It would only be of concern to me if that had been done improperly, ie if Mr Vaz had been paid money for it or Mr Vaz had got some advantage for it which he had not properly entered in the Register and declared. The fact that he might have arranged for people to sign something is not a matter for me unless there is something else associated with it that is improper.

MR KENNADY: This is very improper.

MS FILKIN: It may be but I have got to have the evidence.

MR KENNADY: This is very improper.

MR BRIGHT: We suspect that as well. The Observer suspects that it is very improper but we have not been able to find any evidence of impropriety.

MR KENNADY: General Mediterranean Holding (SA) is an overseas company.

MS FILKIN: I took the point which you made.

MR KENNADY: I was trying to get hold of who these people are and send individually to them asking why did they sign.

MR BRIGHT: We have done that and none of them remember—conveniently.

MR KENNADY: Why did they sign? Do you know what was the rumour? This is a rumour I cannot prove. A lot of money was paid for this and Auchi has got this spread over all the Arab papers.

MS FILKIN: And where did the money go?

MR KENNADY: Mr Keith Vaz was the bag man, I have been informed.

MS FILKIN: Have you got anybody who can substantiate that?

MR KENNADY: Verbally. I have only got verbally.

MS FILKIN: Verbally is all right as long as the people will tell me.

MR KENNADY: I never thought I would come this far. I have been talking to Martin but I have been very angry. To me, Madam, this is very downgrading of the Houses of Parliament, very much.

MS FILKIN: It may or may not be, and you may be right, but what I need is to have somebody who gives me information about how it was constructed and then I might agree with you. I just have to keep an open mind until I have that evidence.

MR KENNADY: Okay, fine, I will think.

MS FILKIN: This is a document that I can get copied.

MR KENNADY: Do you want this?

MS FILKIN: No, I do not need that unless there is evidence in relation to it.


MS FILKIN: What is that document?

MR KENNADY: That is 1999, the name is not there. The name is not there except the picture. This is the party, April 23, during which Mr Keith Vaz was offered a job and did not have it. He is there in 1998. Nobody is giving me 1997 because I suspect his name is in the brochure of 1997 and that is why it has disappeared.

MS FILKIN: And it is not in Companies House?

MR KENNADY: No. Those are GMH Luxembourg annual reports.

MS FILKIN: I will just get my staff to start doing that and then I am going to have to draw our conversation to a close fairly soon. Let me ask you to scour your memory and see if there is anything else that relates to Mr Vaz that you need to tell me.

MR BRIGHT: Is Mr Vaz included in this booklet here?

MR KENNADY: Yes, there is Mr Vaz.

MS FILKIN: What is that?

MR KENNADY: That is the twenty years ----

MS FILKIN: What date is that?

MR KENNADY: This was supposed to have been April 1999.

MR BRIGHT: This is the start of it all. This booklet came into the possession of our sources, it came to us with the link with Mr Vaz included in it.

MS FILKIN: And you tried to look up the registration?

MR BRIGHT: Exactly. He claimed they had not been able to get that booklet stopped, it had gone to the printers around the time that he actually resigned, which is fine, that is perfectly legitimate. That was when our investigations started. It clearly says that Mr Vaz is a director in that booklet.

MS FILKIN: And that says to 1999.

MR BRIGHT: So, why? We started asking the questions and they explained the chronology according to them.

MS FILKIN: And have you followed up any of the other people on any of these boards, such as Lord Lamont?

MR BRIGHT: Yes. There are two key people who have talked to us. Norman Lamont will not talk to us. Lord Steel has talked to us at length.


MR BRIGHT: And says that as far as he can see, until he has cast iron proof to the contrary, he has to believe what Mr Auchi tells him about Mr Vaz.

MS FILKIN: Was he not a director, so would he not know?

MR BRIGHT: He claims that his directorship was very much something he dipped into from time to time.


MR BRIGHT: What he has told us is that the directors have made it clear that Mr Vaz is to have nothing to do with the company in future.

MS FILKIN: Which company are they talking about when they are talking about this?

MR BRIGHT: They are talking about GMH (UK).

MS FILKIN: And is Lord Lamont a director of that company?

MR KENNADY: He is a director of a subsidiary of GMH in Luxembourg.

MS FILKIN: That is a subsidiary of Luxembourg (SA)?


MS FILKIN: So he would not necessarily know when Mr Vaz was a director of the UK company?

MR BRIGHT: No, Lord Steel should know, to be honest.

MS FILKIN: Because he is on the same board?

MR BRIGHT: Yes. * * *

MS FILKIN: Is there anybody else on that board?

MR BRIGHT: There is a man that ----

MS FILKIN: There is Baroness Falkender.

MR BRIGHT: There is Baroness Falkender. She does not speak to the press because of their treatment of Harold Wilson. There is also ----

MR KENNADY: She was a director in the company where Keith Vaz was.


MR KENNADY: She is a director in two companies.

MR BRIGHT: She should speak to you. The other person who has told us all sorts of things which are unsubstantiated is a man called Tom Sackville who ----

MR KENNADY: I have seen him personally there.

MR BRIGHT: Tom Sackville, as I understand it, is a former Conservative MP, is that correct?

MR KENNADY: That is right.

MR BRIGHT: Who left the company.

MS FILKIN: He was a director, was he?

MR BRIGHT: He was a director.

MR KENNADY: He was displeased.

MR BRIGHT: He left the company because he ----

MR KENNADY: No, he is not registered as a director anywhere.

MR BRIGHT: Okay. He claims ----

MR KENNADY: But he was there on the premises for a long time.

MS FILKIN: He worked for the company?

MR BRIGHT: Okay. He became uncomfortable with the continuing rumours and stories in the business world and in the Middle East about Mr Auchi's continued links with Saddam and so he resigned whatever post. Whether it was a consultancy post or a directorship I am not quite sure. He is absolutely certain that Keith Vaz was a paid director, was paid money and was a director from long before, he says.

MS FILKIN: What about Gerald Malone?

MR BRIGHT: We have tried to speak to Gerald Malone. Gerald Malone, I believe, is not a director of GMH (UK) but he is still a director of Regent, which is the pharmaceutical company.

MR KENNADY: His registration is 3 February 1999.

MS FILKIN: Thank you. I will, if I may, just have this page photocopied and the front of this photocopied so we have also got a copy.

MR BRIGHT: I know that Antony was planning to ring you this afternoon about Tom Sackville.

MS FILKIN: Thank you. That has been immensely helpful. Is there anything else you think I need to know?

MR KENNADY: No, that is about it because you are involving yourself ----

MS FILKIN: Could I say once again, which is what I did at the beginning, what we do now is ---- Let me give you that so you have a record of what happens in this process. (Document handed) My colleague will produce her note of this meeting. I, as I said, will not use that note until you have had an opportunity to check it very precisely and correct anything that is wrong in it, any spellings of names or any dates or anything at all. If, when you read it, there is any information in it that you feel you would prefer me to consider removing you can say that to me as well. All I am looking for from you is a complete and accurate record of what you want to tell me.

Now, can I be sure that we have spelt your surname right?

MR BRIGHT: Yes, it is B-r-i-g-h-t.

MS FILKIN: It is straight forward. Is there anything else you want to tell me today?

MR BRIGHT: No. I think that it would be very useful for you to receive the document that records that political donation from one of his companies to we do not know, it just says "political donation".


MR BRIGHT: Because you may be able to ask questions that people do not have to answer us about.

MS FILKIN: Of course.

MR BRIGHT: We can also provide you with the name of the accountant who dealt with that transaction. (After consulting Antony Barnett it turns out the accountant was not helpful—I was confusing him with a former director of the Company, J S Abdulla.)


MS FILKIN: That would be most helpful.

MR KENNADY: The accountant was F Dada of Freeman and Partners.

MR BRIGHT: That is fine.

MS FILKIN: Whoever it is, if you could let me have it.

MR KENNADY: The auditors you mean?

MR BRIGHT: No, I meant the financial man that Antony has been speaking to.


MS FILKIN: If we could have that and if I could have any other contact addresses for any of the other people. Lord Steel, Lord Lamont and Baroness Falkender I can contact obviously through the House of Lords, but Tom Sackville and Gerald Malone, both of those would be useful.

MR KENNADY: There is one other name, Lord Cavendish.

MR BRIGHT: Are you sure it is Lord Cavendish, you are not thinking of Antony Cavendish?

MR KENNADY: I know him as Lord Cavendish. I did give you a description of him because I saw him after the visit in October. Lord Cavendish. They kept calling him "Lord Cavendish".

MR BRIGHT: I think they may have called him Lord Cavendish in error.

MR KENNADY: He is very plump, big bellied.

MR BRIGHT: I do not know but he is a former intelligence office who is on the board as well.

MS FILKIN: If there is anybody else.

MR KENNADY: His name is not there officially.

MS FILKIN: Can I thank you very much indeed for coming and for speaking so openly to me, I am very grateful to you. Thank you.


Signed as correct by Mr Gray Kennady (18.10.01) and Mr Martin Bright (24.10.01)

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