Proceeds of Crime Bill

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Standing Committee B

Tuesday 13 November 2001

(Morning)

[Mr. John McWilliam in the Chair]

Proceeds of Crime Bill

10.30 am

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Bob Ainsworth): I beg to move,

That—

(1) during proceedings on the Proceeds of Crime Bill the Standing Committee do meet on Tuesdays at half-past Ten o'clock and at half-past Four o'clock and on Thursdays at five minutes to Nine o'clock and at half-past Two o'clock, except that on Tuesday 8th January 2002 the Committee shall not meet at half-past Ten o'clock;

(2) 39 sittings in all shall be allotted to the consideration of the Bill by the Committee;

(3) the proceedings to be taken on the sittings shall be as shown in the second column of the Table below and shall be taken in the order so shown;

(4) the proceedings which under paragraph (3) are to be taken on any sitting shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the time specified in the third column of the Table;

(5) paragraph (3) does not prevent proceedings being taken (in the order shown in the second column of the Table) at any earlier sitting than that provided for under paragraph (3) if previous proceedings have already been concluded.

TABLE
Sitting	Proceedings	Time for conclusion of proceedings
1st	Clause 1, Schedule 1 and Clauses 2 to 5	—
2nd	Clause 1, Schedule 1 and Clauses 2 to 5	—
3rd	Clause 1, Schedule 1 and Clauses 2 to 5	—
4th	Clause 1, Schedule 1 and Clauses 2 to 5 (so far as not previously concluded), New Clauses and New Schedules relating to Part I	5 p.m.
5th	Clauses 6 to 40	—
6th	Clauses 6 to 40	—
7th	Clauses 6 to 40	—
8th	Clauses 6 to 40	—
9th	Clauses 6 to 40	—
10th	Clauses 6 to 40 (so far as not previously concluded)	7 p.m.
11th	Clauses 41 to 74	—
12th	Clauses 41 to 74 (so far as not previously concluded)	5 p.m.
13th	Clauses 75 to 93	—
14th	Clauses 75 to 93 (so far as not previously concluded), New Clauses and New Schedules relating to Part 2	7 p.m.
15th	Clauses 94 to 137, Schedule 2 and Clauses 138 to 157	—
16th	Clauses 94 to 137, Schedule 2 and Clauses 138 to 157 (so far as not previously concluded), New Clauses and New Schedules relating to Part 3	5 p.m.
17th	Part 4, New Clauses and New Schedules relating to Part 4	1 p.m.
18th	Clauses 245 to 252, Schedule 3, Clauses 253 to 268, Schedule 4 and Clauses 269 to 287	—
19th	Clauses 245 to 252, Schedule 3, Clauses 253 to 268, Schedule 4 and Clauses 269 to 287	—
20th	Clauses 245 to 252, Schedule 3, Clauses 253 to 268, Schedule 4 and Clauses 269 to 287	—
21st	Clauses 245 to 252, Schedule 3, Clauses 253 to 268, Schedule 4 and Clauses 269 to 287	—
22nd	Clauses 245 to 252, Schedule 3, Clauses 253 to 268, Schedule 4 and Clauses 269 to 287 (so far as not previously concluded)	7 p.m.
23rd	Clauses 288 to 310	—
24th	Clauses 288 to 310	—
25th	Clauses 288 to 310 (so far as not previously concluded), New Clauses and New Schedules relating to Part 5	5 p.m.
26th	Clauses 311 to 319, Schedule 5 and Clause 320	—
27th	Clauses 311 to 319, Schedule 5 and Clause 320 (so far as not previously concluded), New Clauses and New Schedules relating to Part 6	7 p.m.
28th	Clauses 321 to 324, Schedule 6 and Clauses 325 to 329	—
29th	Clauses 321 to 324, Schedule 6 and Clauses 325 to 329	—
30th	Clauses 321 to 324, Schedule 6 and Clauses 325 to 329	—
31st	Clauses 321 to 324, Schedule 6 and Clauses 325 to 329 (so far as not previously concluded), New Clauses and New Schedules relating to Part 7	7 p.m.
32nd	Part 8	—
33rd	Part 8	—
34th	Part 8 (so far as not previously concluded), New Clauses and New Schedules relating to Part 8	1 p.m.
35th	Part 9, New Clauses and New Schedules relating to Part 9	7 p.m.
36th	Part 10	—
37th	Part 10 (so far as not previously concluded), New Clauses and New Schedules relating to Part 10	5 p.m.
38th	Part 11, New Clauses and New Schedules relating to Part 11	1 p.m.
39th	Clause 433, Schedule 7, Clauses 434 to 438, Schedule 8, Clause 439, Schedule 9 and Clauses 440 to 444, remaining New Clauses and New Schedules	7 p.m.

Mr. Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield): I take this opportunity to welcome you to the Chair, Mr. McWilliam. The programme motion was agreed with little difficulty and we hope that it will serve the Committee well. I wish first to flag up the fact that at least one member of the Committee has expressed slight concern that the 8.55 am start for our proceedings on Thursday mornings may cause difficulty because of his arrangements for travelling into London. I shall not say anything more about that now, because in the past we have succeeded in resolving such matters amicably. However, if we make progress, and such timing of our proceedings is causing difficulty to a member of the Committee, perhaps we could reconsider the start time and move it back, even if only by 20 minutes, to 9.15 am. I thank the Minister and the other members of the Programming Sub-Committee who have made good progress in sorting out such matters.

The Chairman: The fact that our proceedings are to start at 8.55 am is the result of a motion that was carried in the House. If there were a desire on the part of a member of the Committee to change the time, the Programming Sub-Committee would need to meet again.

Mr. David Wilshire (Spelthorne): May I, too, welcome you to the Chair, Mr. McWilliam. As I am part of the usual channels, I apologise for not attending the meeting of the Programming Sub-Committee. I was at my mother's funeral, and I am sure that you understand where my priority lay. If there is a need to discuss the timing of our proceedings, I am sure that that will be done in the usual way.

Question put and agreed to.

The Chairman: I remind the Committee that copies of the money resolution and the Ways and Means resolution associated with the Bill are available in the Room. Adequate notice must be given of amendments. It is not my habit, nor that of my co-Chairmen, to call starred amendments—and they do not become unstarred in the afternoon, as happened in the past.

Clause 1

The Agency and its Director

Mr. Grieve: I beg to move amendment No. 1, in page 1, line 7, after `Director)', insert

`and a deputy Director for Northern Ireland'.

The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to take amendment No. 6, in schedule 1, page 256, line 23, leave out `senior official' and insert `deputy director'.

Mr. Grieve: I can tell the Minister that we intend, in so far as we can, to scrutinise such a massive piece of legislation in a reasonable time, and to be as concise as possible when discussing amendments. As the Bill is so substantial, it will require close scrutiny and we shall focus on the aspects of it that cause us anxiety. Its first five clauses are some of the least controversial and we shall therefore endeavour to get through that part of the Bill as soon as possible, because later clauses are much more controversial.

Amendments Nos. 1 and 6 relate to the position of the agency and its director. Yesterday we received a helpful document from the Home Office that detailed, as had not been done previously, how it was expected that the director would carry out his functions. That has undoubtedly been extremely useful in preparing for this morning's debate, but it raises several questions that need to be answered.

Amendment No. 1 is about the director's role in relation to Northern Ireland. This may seem an obvious place to start, but clearly the director's functions are considerable. He will have considerable discretion and power, and his remit extends to England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

The Bill makes provision for the appointment of a deputy director, but no specific reference is made to anyone, apart from an official, having responsibility for Northern Ireland. However, as the Minister knows, Northern Ireland has a separate judicial system, with its own chief justice and judges, which it may even be hoped may become part of the devolved responsibilities of the Northern Ireland Assembly at some point. I am therefore bound to flag up the fact that I am slightly surprised that Northern Ireland is not given the separate status of having a deputy director, especially as the director's powers are so considerable.

This is a matter of accountability. As the director has delegated functions, and as in Northern Ireland those functions will presumably be exercised wholly by the official nominated, failing to give him the status of deputy director seems to us to be a mistake. Doing so would emphasise his distinctive role. As the Minister makes clear in the documents that he sent us yesterday, the official will have to operate in the closest possible liaison with the law enforcement authorities in Northern Ireland, which effectively have a separate structure. A separate deputy directorship should be set up, while allowing a single Assets Recovery Agency to function. That is a simple but important point, and we commend the amendments to the Committee.

 

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Prepared 13 November 2001