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New clause 6
Disclosing information during
adoption process
Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.
New clause 7
Disclosing protected information
about adults
'(1) This section applies where—
(a) a person applies to the appropriate adoption agency for protected information to be disclosed to him, and
(b) none of the information is about a person who is a child at the time of the application.
(2) The agency is not required to proceed with the application unless it considers it appropriate to do so.
(3) If the agency does proceed with the application it must take all reasonable steps to obtain the views of any person the information is about as to the disclosure of the information about him.
(4) The agency may then disclose the information if it considers it appropriate to do so.
(5) In deciding whether it is appropriate to proceed with the application or disclose the information, the agency must consider—
(a) the welfare of the adopted person,
(b) any views obtained under subsection (3),
(c) any prescribed matters,
and all the other circumstances of the case.
(6) This section does not apply to a request for information under section 58(2)'.—[Jacqui Smith.]
Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.
New clause 8
Disclosing protected information
about children
'(1) This section applies where—
(a) a person applies to the appropriate adoption agency for protected information to be disclosed to him, and
(b) any of the information is about a person who is a child at the time of the application.
(2) The agency is not required to proceed with the application unless it considers it appropriate to do so.
(3) If the agency does proceed with the application, then, so far as the information is about any person who is at the time a child, the agency must take all reasonable steps to obtain—
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(a) the views of any parent or guardian of the child, and
(b) the views of the child, if the agency considers it appropriate to do so having regard to his age and understanding and to all the other circumstances of the case,
as to the disclosure of the information.
(4) And, so far as the information is about any person who has at the time attained the age of 18 years, the agency must take all reasonable steps to obtain his views as to the disclosure of the information.
(5) The agency may then disclose the information if it considers it appropriate to do so.
(6) In deciding whether it is appropriate to proceed with the application, or disclose the information, where any of the information is about a person who is at the time a child—
(a) if the child is an adopted child, the child's welfare must be the paramount consideration,
(b) in the case of any other child, the agency must have particular regard to the child's welfare.
(7) And, in deciding whether it is appropriate to proceed with any application or disclose any information, the agency must consider—
(a) the welfare of the adopted person (where subsection (6)(a) does not apply),
(b) any views obtained under subsection (3) or (4),
(c) any prescribed matters,
and all the other circumstances of the case.
(8) This section does not apply to a request for information under section 58(2)'.—[Jacqui Smith.]
Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.
New clause 17
Amendment of Adoption (Scotland) Act 1978:
Overseas Adoptions
'In section 65 of the Adoption (Scotland) Act 1978 (interpretation), for subsection (2) there is substituted—
''(2) In this Act, ''overseas adoption'' means an adoption of a description specified by an order made by the Scottish Ministers.
(2A) The description specified by an order under subsection (2) shall be a description of adoptions of children which—
(a) appear to the Scottish Ministers to be effected under the law of any country or territory outside the British Islands;
(b) are not Convention adoptions; and
(c) meet any requirements prescribed by regulations made by the Scottish Ministers.
(2B) In subsection (2A), ''children'' includes persons who were children at the time the adoption was applied for.
(2C) An order under subsection (2) may contain provision as to the manner in which evidence of any overseas adoption may be given.
(2D) Any reference in this Act to an overseas adoption includes a reference to an adoption—
(a) of such description as is specified in an order made, or having effect as if made, under subsection (2) before the coming into force of section [Amendment of Adoption (Scotland) Act 1978: overseas adoptions] of the Adoption and Children Act 2002; and
(b) effected before the coming into force of that section.''.'—[Jacqui Smith.]
Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.
New clause 1
Interviews with children
' In the case of an application for a placement order, for the variation or revocation of such an order, or for an adoption order,
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no interview which is conducted with a child shall be relied upon in proceedings unless supported by a video or audio recording of that interview.'.—[Tim Loughton.]
Brought up, and read the First time.
Tim Loughton: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
I am pleased that we have a little time left in which to discuss the Opposition new clauses. New clause 1 is a probing new clause, tabled by my hon. Friend the ubiquitous hon. Member for Isle of Wight. The new clause seems to be sensible. It would allow evidence from children to be relied on only if it were supported by a video or audio recording of their interviews. He tells me that there is concern that children's statements may be used to influence the court, even if the way in which they were obtained would be out of order for the purposes of a criminal prosecution, and he can cite some examples of that from cases in his constituency. Having made inquires at the House of Commons Library, he also told me that it is unlawful to disclose any reports or other evidence to any third parties without the leave of the court, even after proceedings are concluded. He is concerned that that is perhaps unreasonable because, on that basis, parents who have a grievance cannot even disclose the relevant information to local councillors who are responsible for social services departments or to a Member of Parliament.
Ms Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley): Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that any person who wants such information to be disclosed can apply to the court, giving their reasons, and the court will give due consideration to those reasons? The papers are the property of the court in order to preserve the confidentiality that we would expect in those circumstances.
Tim Loughton: Yes, I appreciate that. That came up in discussion of the earlier amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight, to which the Minister responded. There seems to be an anomaly whereby a parent with a strong direct interest cannot disclose information on a confidential basis, even to a Member of Parliament or a councillor who is responsible for the social services department, who may be privy to the information that is being discussed or decided on in court.
I said that this was a probing amendment. We have, of course, referred at length to the desirability of ascertaining the child's wishes as a party to any of the adoption processes. We have had debates on whether a child's age should be taken into account when their evidence is considered. The Bill contains all sorts of provisions about ascertaining the child's point of view, but there is no compulsion for somebody to go and speak, first-hand, to the child. That is still a weakness, even though one would hope that, in practice, the child would be consulted without such a compulsion.
I cited my own case of parental custody divorce proceedings many years ago, in which a greater input into what was being discussed and written about the circumstances of the child would have been desirable. Given the varying reliability of the child's evidence, which may depend on age, circumstances or the
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different emotional pressures on that child, there seems to be a case for ensuring that everything happens as dispassionately and objectively as possible, to minimise the pressure on that child. Keeping a video or audio recording seems a sensible way to do that.
That is the purpose of the new clause. I hope that the Minister can give some assurances as to why it will not be necessary, so that I can convey her message to my eager hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight.
Ms Munn: On reading the new clause, I was frankly appalled. I know that the Committee is aware of the extent of Labour Members' experience of such situations. The idea that we should interview children on video about their wishes and feelings about an adoption is so bad that words fail me. I cannot believe that anybody would think that that is the right way forward.
Video interviewing of children was introduced in criminal proceedings to ensure that children who had been abused did not have to repeat their allegations in court, as they had had to in the past, often before their alleged abuser. It was designed to protect the child. However, anybody who has ever been involved in a video interview with a child, however it is done, and whatever steps are taken to minimise the distress to the child, will know one would never want one's own child to have go through it, because it is not easy.
Adoption involves civil proceedings, and we are concerned with the importance of knowing the wishes and feelings of children. Hon. Members who have children will understand that children say different things at different times to different people, and that their age and understanding of the issues will have implications for what they say about their wishes and feelings. My hon. Friends who have worked in the social work field will have heard children saying different things at different times, depending on which of their parents they are with or whether they are with their foster parents or their birth parents. It is not easy to get to the bottom of what a child really thinks. In the adoption process and in care proceedings, which often precede adoption, necessary mechanisms are already in place to ensure that the wishes and feelings of the child are taken into account.
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