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27 Nov 2002 : Column 421—continued

Mr. Roger Williams: The hon. Member for Aberavon (Dr. Francis) waxed lyrical about the support that the NHS was given by socialists, but does the Minister agree that it was conceived by a Liberal—Beveridge?

Mr. Touhig: Nye Bevan was certainly no Liberal, and he was the architect of the national health service. We share that honour with no one.

My hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Mr. David) said that although the Bill was short, it was important and it would make a difference. I certainly agree. My hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Havard) said CHCs in his area did good work and he wished to see their role develop, especially the advocacy role. We will see that develop, following the introduction of the Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) welcomed the pre-legislative scrutiny procedure and wondered whether it could be improved. I am sure that we will return to the matter later in our discussions. CHCs will have the power to inspect hospices, where they are delivering primary care. That is an important point to make.

I thank all hon. Members who have taken part in the debate. I thank those who took part in the pre-legislative scrutiny, those in the Welsh Affairs Committee, the Welsh Grand Committee and colleagues in the National Assembly, who made an important contribution to our discussions in formulating the policy. As a result of the pre-legislative scrutiny, we have a better Bill now than we would otherwise have had, and that is a lesson for all of us. I remember a time when I had a private Member's Bill soon after coming to the House. If we had had pre-legislative scrutiny at that time, that piece of legislation might well have been improved.

The Bill builds on the strategic framework put in place by the NHS Reform and Health Care Professions Act 2002, which was passed in the last Session. It gives patients in Wales a stronger role and a voice in the improvement, development and running of the health service in Wales, to which we are all committed, and changes the emphasis from treating disease to improving health in Wales. It supports the Welsh Assembly's drive to improve the health and well-being of people of Wales and delivers key elements of the Assembly's 10-year plan for the health service in Wales.

This is an excellent example of the partnership that exists between the Government and the National Assembly. We have already achieved a great deal by working together, and I commend the Bill to the House and ask hon. Members to support its being given a Second Reading.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill read a Second time.

27 Nov 2002 : Column 422


Motion made, and Question put forthwith, pursuant to Orders [28 June 2001 and 29 October 2002],

The House divided: Ayes 240, Noes 72.

Division No. 10
[9:59 pm


Abbott, Diane
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Bob
Allen, Graham
Anderson, Janet
Armstrong, Hilary
Atherton, Candy Austin, John Bailey, Adrian Baird, Vera Barnes, Harry Barron, Kevin Battle, John Bayley, Hugh Beard, Nigel Beckett, Margaret Begg, Anne Benn, Hilary Bennett, Andrew Benton, Joe Berry, Roger Best, Harold Betts, Clive Blears, Hazel Blizzard, Bob Borrow, David Bradley, Keith Bradley, Peter Bradshaw, Ben Brake, Tom Brennan, Kevin Brooke, Annette L. Brown, Nicholas Brown, Russell Bryant, Chris Buck, Karen Burden, Richard Burgon, Colin Burnham, Andy Byers, Stephen Caborn, Richard Cairns, David Calton, Patsy Campbell, Alan Campbell, Ronnie Caplin, Ivor Carmichael, Alistair Casale, Roger Caton, Martin Cawsey, Ian Challen, Colin Chapman, Ben Chidgey, David Clapham, Michael Clark, Lynda Clarke, Charles Clarke, Tom Clarke, Tony Clelland, David Clwyd, Ann Coaker, Vernon Cohen, Harry Colman, Tony Connarty, Michael Cook, Robin Corbyn, Jeremy Cousins, Jim Cranston, Ross Crausby, David Cruddas, Jon Cummings, John Cunningham, Jim Cunningham, Tony Davey, Valerie David, Wayne Davidson, Ian Davis, Terry Dawson, Hilton Dean, Janet Denham, John Dhanda, Parmjit Dismore, Andrew Dobbin, Jim Dobson, Frank Doran, Frank Doughty, Sue Drew, David Drown, Julia Eagle, Angela Eagle, Maria Ellman, Louise Ennis, Jeff Etherington, Bill Fisher, Mark Fitzpatrick, Jim Flint, Caroline Follett, Barbara Foster, Derek Foster, Michael Foster, Michael Jabez Francis, Hywel Gardiner, Barry George, Bruce Gerrard, Neil Gibson, Ian Gidley, Sandra Gilroy, Linda Godsiff, Roger Goggins, Paul Griffiths, Jane Griffiths, Nigel Griffiths, Win Grogan, John Hain, Peter Hall, Mike Hall, Patrick Hamilton, David Hamilton, Fabian Hanson, David Harris, Evan Harris, Tom Harvey, Nick Havard, Dai Healey, John Henderson, Doug Henderson, Ivan Hendrick, Mark Hepburn, Stephen Heppell, John Hesford, Stephen Heyes, David Hill, Keith Hinchliffe, David Hodge, Margaret Holmes, Paul Hoon, Geoffrey Hope, Phil Hopkins, Kelvin Howarth, Alan Howarth, George Howells, Kim Hoyle, Lindsay Hughes, Beverley Hughes, Kevin Humble, Joan Iddon, Brian Illsley, Eric Ingram, Adam Irranca-Davies, Huw Jackson, Helen Jenkins, Brian Johnson, Alan Jones, Helen Jones, Jon Owen Jones, Kevan Jones, Martyn Joyce, Eric Kaufman, Gerald Keen, Alan Keetch, Paul Kemp, Fraser Khabra, Piara S. Kidney, David Kilfoyle, Peter King, Andy Kirkwood, Archy Kumar, Ashok Ladyman, Stephen Lamb, Norman Lammy, David Lawrence, Jackie Laws, David Laxton, Bob Lazarowicz, Mark Lepper, David Leslie, Christopher Levitt, Tom Lewis, Ivan Lewis, Terry Liddell, Helen Linton, Martin Lloyd, Tony Llwyd, Elfyn Love, Andrew Lucas, Ian Luke, Iain Lyons, John McAvoy, Thomas McCabe, Stephen McCartney, Ian McDonagh, Siobhain MacDonald, Calum McDonnell, John MacDougall, John McFall, John McIsaac, Shona McKechin, Ann McKenna, Rosemary Mackinlay, Andrew McNamara, Kevin McNulty, Tony Mactaggart, Fiona McWilliam, John Mahmood, Khalid Mallaber, Judy Marris, Rob Marsden, Gordon Marshall, David Marshall, Jim Marshall-Andrews, Robert Martlew, Eric Meacher, Michael Meale, Alan Merron, Gillian Miller, Andrew Mitchell, Austin Moffatt, Laura Mole, Chris Moonie, Lewis Moran, Margaret Morgan, Julie Mountford, Kali Mudie, George Mullin, Chris Munn, Meg Murphy, Denis Murphy, Paul Naysmith, Doug Norris, Dan O'Brien, Bill O'Hara, Edward Olner, Bill O'Neill, Martin Öpik, Lembit Osborne, Sandra Palmer, Nick Pearson, Ian Picking, Anne Pickthall, Colin Pike, Peter Plaskitt, James Pollard, Kerry Pond, Chris Pound, Stephen Prentice, Bridget Prentice, Gordon Prescott, John Price, Adam Primarolo, Dawn Prosser, Gwyn Pugh, John Purchase, Ken Purnell, James Quin, Joyce Rammell, Bill Rapson, Syd Reed, Andy Reid, Alan Rendel, David Robertson, John Robinson, Geoffrey Roche, Barbara Rooney, Terry Ross, Ernie Roy, Frank Ruane, Chris Ruddock, Joan Russell, Bob Russell, Christine Ryan, Joan Sanders, Adrian Sarwar, Mohammad Savidge, Malcolm Sawford, Phil Sedgemore, Brian Shaw, Jonathan Sheerman, Barry Sheridan, Jim Short, Clare Simon, Siôn Simpson, Alan Skinner, Dennis Smith, Andrew Smith, Chris Smith, Geraldine Smith, Jacqui Smith, John Smith, Robert Soley, Clive Southworth, Helen Spellar, John Squire, Rachel Starkey, Phyllis Steinberg, Gerry Stevenson, George Stewart, David Stewart, Ian Stinchcombe, Paul Stoate, Howard Stuart, Gisela Stunell, Andrew Sutcliffe, Gerry Tami, Mark Taylor, Dari Taylor, David Taylor, Richard Thomas, Gareth Thomas, Gareth Thomas, Simon Thurso, John Timms, Stephen Tipping, Paddy Todd, Mark Touhig, Don Trickett, Jon Truswell, Paul Turner, Desmond Turner, Neil Twigg, Derek Twigg, Stephen Tyler, Paul Tynan, Bill Vaz, Keith Walley, Joan Ward, Claire Wareing, Robert N. Watts, David White, Brian Wicks, Malcolm Williams, Alan Williams, Hywel Williams, Roger Wilson, Brian Winnick, David Woodward, Shaun Woolas, Phil Worthington, Tony Wray, James Wright, Anthony D. Wright, Tony Wyatt, Derek

Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. Jim Murphy and
Charlotte Atkins


Atkinson, Peter Bacon, Richard Baldry, Tony Beggs, Roy Bercow, John Blunt, Crispin Boswell, Tim Burnett, John Burt, Alistair Cameron, David Campbell, Gregory Chope, Christopher Clarke, Kenneth Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Davis, David Dodds, Nigel Donaldson, Jeffrey M. Dorrell, Stephen Evans, Nigel Flight, Howard Flook, Adrian Forth, Eric Fox, Liam Gillan, Cheryl Goodman, Paul Gray, James Grayling, Chris Green, Damian Grieve, Dominic Gummer, John Hammond, Philip Hayes, John Heald, Oliver Hermon, Lady Hogg, Douglas Howard, Michael Howarth, Gerald Knight, Greg Lewis, Julian Liddell-Grainger, Ian Lidington, David Lilley, Peter Luff, Peter McIntosh, Anne Maclean, David McLoughlin, Patrick Mates, Michael Mercer, Patrick Murrison, Andrew O'Brien, Stephen Ottaway, Richard Page, Richard Paisley, Ian Pickles, Eric Robertson, Hugh Robertson, Laurence Robinson, Iris Robinson, Peter Rosindell, Andrew Sayeed, Jonathan Simpson, Keith Smyth, Martin Spring, Richard Swayne, Desmond Syms, Robert Trend, Michael Tyrie, Andrew Watkinson, Angela Whittingdale, John Wiggin, Bill Yeo, Tim Young, George

Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. David Wilshire and
Mr. Mark Francois

Question accordingly agreed to.

27 Nov 2002 : Column 425

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