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18 Dec 2002 : Column 936—continued
8.45 pm
Joyce Quin (Gateshead, East and Washington, West): I support the idea of decoupling the issue of local government reorganisation from regional government, so the principle behind the amendments is one that I understand and support. However, the way in which they are phrased does not attract me, because they involve a choice between one solution of unitary government—the one that the boundary committee recommends—and the status quo, which would still leave the areas concerned with two tiers.
One way of dealing with that might have been to have a separate question for the areas affected by local government reorganisation, to the effect that there was a choice between one or other form of unitary government. One of the Liberal Democrat councillors in the north-east, Chris Foote-Wood, has proposed such a formula for a second question. Since I, like the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey), am a supporter of unitary government, that might have been one way of dealing with it.
I hope that my Front-Bench colleagues will not close their minds to the possibility of decoupling the issue from the main debate on regional government. Failure to do so would send a message that regional government had something to do with local government, whereas—as my right hon. Friend the Minister knows—those of us who have been keen on regional government for a long time see it as something important in its own right, something that could be supported on its own merits and something that would bring a new form of democracy to our country.
I do not accept any of the arguments of the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond). It is a shame that someone with the historic name of Runnymede in his constituency title should be so resistant to any constitutional innovation, and I am disappointed by his narrow-minded attitude to regional government. However, I hope that the Government will look at the ideas behind the Liberal Democrat amendments, even if, like me, they are not attracted by the specific amendments.
I want to refer to the comments made by Conservative Members about their fears about the destruction of the counties, and they often refer to the idea of the historic counties. Having been born and brought up in the historic county of Northumberland, and representing now two towns in the historic county of Durham, I know perfectly well that the historic counties have not existed for a long time. Indeed, they were effectively destroyed by the then Conservative Government in the 1970s. I do not recall the Conservatives taking into
account at the time the feelings of identity that people had with those historic counties. Their argument about counties is misplaced, and the previous Conservative Government compounded the matter by some of the decisions they took, understandably, to allow unitary areas in other parts of the former historic counties. We should not be attracted to their points of view. None the less, I urge my hon. Friends to accept that it is important, in the campaign to establish regional government in this country, that a clear distinction be drawn between the role and functions of regional government and those of local government. It is possible to believe strongly in the need for stronger and more effective local government—as Labour Members do—without that contradicting the principle that we must have an equally strong regional democratic government in those areas that want it.The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge argued that it would not be possible to have regional government in only one area of England. I found that argument incomprehensible. At present, we already have what is referred to as an asymmetrical form of devolution in this country. The Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly each have their unique powers, and a special arrangement is in place for London. A number of special arrangements exist: if such an arrangement suited the people in north-east England, for instance, why should they be denied something to which people elsewhere in the UK have been given an entitlement?
The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge seemed to take the view that England must be standardised. That is entirely wrong. Indeed, that standardisation approach has bedevilled previous local government reorganisations, as it does not take account of regional and local feeling.
Mr. Lansley: Does not the right hon. Lady accept that the Government are offering devolution only on their own terms? Other parts of the UK may not want to adopt the standard model—for example, they might prefer central Government powers to be devolved to upper-tier authorities such as county councils. If people in the north-east want, and vote for, regional government, that would be okay for them. However, that may well be the exception and the Government would not allow others a different form of devolution.
Joyce Quin: I do not accept that. The Bill allows a certain form of regional government for areas that decide that they want it. However, why should not a future Government listen to different proposals that may come forward from areas that decide otherwise? As the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton noted, there is no reason why a future Government should not produce proposals for unitary local government in areas that do not want to move to regional government. That is another reason why the two issues should be decoupled.
Mr. Lansley: The point that the right hon. Lady makes is contradicted by the specific example of planning. The Government propose that regional planning will be conducted either by the elected regional assemblies or by unelected—nominated—regional planning bodies. People will not have the option to say
that the devolved planning responsibilities in their region should be conducted at a sub-regional level or by counties. That option is simply not available.
Joyce Quin: The hon. Gentleman makes a point about one aspect of this decentralisation process. However, although I believe that the proposals will suit my part of the country, the north-east, it is perfectly possible that, in the future, different proposals could be formulated that would suit other parts of the country. It is absurd of the hon. Gentleman to see the decentralisation process as a one-off event that closes the door on any future innovation.
Mr. Stephen O'Brien: I want to substantiate the point made so well by my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley). If people in north Cumbria—the old county of Cumberland—had to suffer regional government, they might prefer to be part of her north-east regional assembly than a north-west assembly. How would that be tested if, as my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) asserts, there is no possibility that one region of England can go it alone?
Joyce Quin: I strongly support the Government's approach of proceeding on the basis of the regional boundaries that we have because that is the way to make progress with regional devolution. However, I am perfectly relaxed about the prospect of having an elected assembly in the north-west and one in the north-east or even not having an elected assembly in the north-west and yet there being a sufficient desire to reopen the boundary issue at some point. My perspective is different from that of the hon. Gentleman; he seems to imagine that regional boundaries are prisons from which one cannot escape. That is an absurd notion. Why should a north-western region not co-operate with the north-east over transport links and economic links in border areas of the regions?
This is not an entrapment mechanism; it will enable regions to look at their needs and to co-operate. The devolved structures in European countries and elsewhere in the world often have structures that allow regions to co-operate with each other. To see regions as something from which one can never escape or to believe that it is impossible for them to have a dialogue with central Government or other regions is an absurd way of viewing the situation.
I hope that we can make progress on the Bill. Despite hoping that Ministers will look at local government reorganisation somewhat differently, I strongly support the Government's overall approach to the issue.
Mr. Gummer: It is important, when considering the referendum question, to recognise that the regions were first established for the convenience of Government to deal with elected counties in particular and unitary authorities. That is why they are drawn as they are—it is for the convenience of Government, while counties, districts and unitary authorities are the elected convenience. If we turn that round and take away the elected counties, we are doing something very different. That is why I draw a distinction between the regions as a Government convenience—it was more convenient to have a common Government local region rather than
having different regions for different purposes—and the Minister's suggestion that the regions to which individuals naturally show some allegiance are convenient for Government. Historically, people did not do that because they were in a county or district, depending on the issue, or a unitary authority.
Jim Knight: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
In many parts of the country, the region itself holds no particular attraction. I agree with the right hon. Member for Gateshead, East and Washington, West (Joyce Quin). I am sure that in the north-east and, perhaps to a lesser extent, the north-west, there will be those who see some connection between themselves and a place called the north-east. We have all found that in our travels around the countryside, and in our business and political life. However, I hope that she will accept from me that that does not exist for some regions. I am not trying to have a row with the Minister for Local Government and the Regions. We can have a bit of badinage, but he knows perfectly well whether there is a connection between Rickmansworth and my constituency. Rickmansworth is to a great extent part of greater London, with which it connects itself and has no connection with my part of the country.
It is likely that if there were a referendum, most of the people of the so-called eastern region would vote no to the first question put to them. They would be more likely to vote no if there were not a second question. Even more antagonism is created by the idea of local government reorganisation of the kind we know that the Government have in mind.
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