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27 Jan 2003 : Column 661—continued
Mr. Ivor Caplin (Hove): Steak and kidney?
Mr. Robathan: No, it was not steak and kidney pudding actually.
We agree with much of what was said by the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Thomas), although I was not here for his speech. He agreed with the arguments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate about security of supply and how the Bill was distorting the market. I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman is unlikely to vote with us—
Mr. Simon Thomas: I am voting with you.
Mr. Robathan: I am delighted to hear that. I thought that he had supported renationalisation.
The hon. Member for Barnsley, West and Penistone (Mr. Clapham) said that safety was better in the public sector. I think that there is no justification for that.
Mr. Clapham: If the hon. Gentleman remembers privatisation of the railways and the history of Railtrack and if he reads the report that the nuclear installations inspectorate published about 18 months ago, he will realise that industries are safer in the public sector.
Mr. Robathan: I am sorry that I cannot agree. With his name, the hon. Gentleman should remember the Clapham rail disaster, which happened long before privatisation. He should remember King's Cross and the underground. He should perhaps remember that a crash happened only this weekend on the underground, which has not, I think, yet been privatised, unless the Government have done so without telling us.
The hon. Member for Hazel Grove repeated the gambling analogy, saying that we needed objective external assessment of liability costs. We agree with that
entirely. We also agree that the market must play an important part and that the regulatory framework should be set by the House.I am afraid that I came in to the Chamber as the hon. Member for East Lothian (Anne Picking) was making her speech. I know that she spoke on behalf of her constituents at Torness, but the idea that wind and wave power will immediately take the place of other forms of energy is misguided. I understand, however, why she spoke on behalf of her constituents.
The hon. Member for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Watson) spoke of Tory dogma, something of which I know nothing. He suggested that the matter is a safety issue. The hon. Member for South Thanet had already pointed out that British Energy has an exceptionally good safety record, and that there is one death a year in the worldwide nuclear industry. We may dismiss the argument about the safety issue. The hon. Member for West Bromwich, East theatrically gave us some great analogies, telling us that storm clouds were gathering and that there had been breathtaking complacency, but he must learn to keep a straight face on these occasions.
The hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Hendrick) also referred to botched privatisation, then spent his entire speech blaming management. He made the profound point that some forms of generation are more expensive than others. The hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. Brown) is of course a cheerleader for renationalisation. The hon. Member for Midlothian (David Hamilton)—possibly a pressed man—said that he was anti-nuclear power and a member of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. I was glad he spoke about his responsibilities to his constituents, however, because we all share those.
Many good points and informative speeches have been made on both sides. The collapse of British Energy is due to several factors. Poor management—management mistakes for those who prefer that phrase—is one. The climate change levy—the carbon tax—has certainly contributed. The higher level of business rates at nuclear power stations is another factor. The nuclear legacy is, of course, another issue. NETA, whether or not it is good for consumers, has created low prices, which has reduced revenue.
The company is failing—indeed, it has failed. We say that that is the working of the market and that the company should go into administration. The Bill is a renationalisation measure. The Trades Union Congress was unanimous, we have been told, in wanting British Energy to be renationalised. Is that the spectre of old Labour coming out from under the skies of new Labour? [Interruption.] I can hear hon. Members saying yes.
We must ask whether the Bill is good for the nuclear energy industry, taxpayers or the country. It is certainly not good for taxpayers. Taxpayers will bail out the company, perhaps paying £3 billion or more. The Bill is a blank cheque. Why, for instance, should taxpayers pay a £336,000 pay-off and £150,000 pension for the chairman and chief executive? If, under his leadership, the company failed and went into administration, he would not get that. My hon. Friend the Member for
Tunbridge Wells (Mr. Norman) is promoting a Bill on Friday that would prevent failed directors from getting such pay-offs if they were not justified.
Mr. David Drew (Stroud): Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Robathan: I will not because I am about to sit down.
We say, "Let the company go into administration." The true value of the power stations and their generating ability will ensure their continued existence, with better management. This is purely a short-term palliative, at enormous cost to the taxpayer. What will happen if, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr. Cash) said, the Bill is hybrid and is thrown out? What will happen if the EU countermands the state aid subsidy? What will happen if the Minister does not get his Bill, as he may not? We think that this is a bad Bill, at huge cost, and we oppose it.
9.41 pm
Mr. Wilson: With leave of the House, Mr. Speaker. Through most of that speech I wondered whether it was a winding-up speech or an amateur dramatics adjudication. I am pleased to hear that the hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley) got the award for the best performance from his Front-Bench colleague.
I am sorry that I did not amuse the hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Robathan) earlier, but one would need to work pretty hard to make the Electricity (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill into a comedy turn. If the charge is that I was sombre, my reply is that I would rather be sombre than sanguine. What we heard from all Opposition parties tonight seemed to be remarkably sanguine on a number of scores. The best description of the Bill and its limited objectives came from my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Watson), who said that it was a good and pragmatic Bill. That is all it is meant to be and it reacts to a particular set of circumstances.
Opposition Members were remarkably sanguine about security of supply. There were some extraordinary comments, as if it would be all right on the night and that we could wish away the contribution of the power stations that we are discussing; we could take 22 away from 22 and still have security of supply. That is absolutely nonsense, and we heard that from members of all the Opposition parties who spoke, and particularly from—
Mr. Wilson: I was just going to mention the Liberal Democrats. On the basis of their casual approach to security of supply, I would not put them in charge of the street lighting, never mind the nation's energy policy. Simply to say that there is not a security of supply issue in terms of the problems of British Energy seems downright bizarre.
Mr. Stunell: Is the Minister's opinion shared by the regulator, Ofgem? I got the impression that it did not support the Minister.
Mr. Wilson: This has been sprung on me—[Interruption.] If the hon. Gentleman wishes to nitpick
with Ofgem, he is welcome to do so. Since Ofgem's prime responsibility is to maintain security of supply—that is also my prime responsibility—we are at one on this question. I have certainly heard nothing from Ofgem in that regard; of course it recognises the importance of the contribution from British Energy. That, largely, has motivated us throughout this affair.We heard speeches from Tories, Liberal Democrats and from Welsh nationalists. The Scottish nationalists thought it was an 8.30 kick-off. After all, only 50 per cent. of Scottish electricity comes from nuclear power. We could not possibly expect any of the six Scottish National party MPs to turn up for a debate of this significance. It is, after all, still the Burns season.
Opposition spokesmen who did participate were remarkably sanguine about the interests of the work force. The Tory spokesman, the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr. Blunt), gave them a mention towards the end of his contribution, but only after he had devoted his entire speech to making the strange point that the company should go into administration. I do not know whether he, the Liberal Democrats, the Welsh national party Members or Members of any other party have taken the trouble to talk to the British Energy work force or to the trade unions who represent them, but I can assure them that the one thing that people representing the work force do not want is for the company to be put deliberately into administration.
We have always been honest with the unions—as with everyone else—that administration remains a possibility. However, to pursue that course of action, as the Opposition parties recommend, is certainly against the interests of the work force, in their perception. It is noteworthy that the only contributors to the debate to raise the interests of the work force were Labour Members: my hon. Friends the Members for East Lothian (Anne Picking) and for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) and others.
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