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10 Feb 2003 : Column 675—continued
Lady Hermon: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the distinction that the Secretary of State drew in 2000 between those who were appointed to DPPs because they were councillors and those who stood as independent members was the electoral mandate? That is the crucial difference between councillors who go on to serve on DPPs and independent members.
Mr. Mallon: I obviously agree with the hon. Lady, but I thought that the terms that were rattling about related to the principle of the text rather than the definition of electoral mandates. Perhaps I am wrong. I am sure that the Standing Committee will clarify some of those matters.
The hon. Member for North Antrim (Rev. Ian Paisley) referred to Sinn Fein. Our party took a lot of stick—we were attacked—when we rightly decided, on the basis of Weston Park, that we would nominate people to the Policing Board and ask young Catholics to join the police service. Members of our party had their houses attacked and cars burned by people in, what I would widely call, the republican community. If we had taken a different stance, what would have happened? There would be no Patten proposals to move us forward. Would the PSNI exist? I doubt it. Would the symbols used in policing have changed? The old policing authority would still be in place. The Democratic Unionist party and the SDLP would not be appointed to it, so we have that in common. There would be no new Chief Constable because, in the circumstances, he would not have come in. The ombudsman's report on Omagh would have been ignored, and there would have been no changes to special branch visits.
I say clearly to Sinn Fein that we do not deal with problems in the same way. If it wants to retard progress for its own political reasons, it can do so, but we are not going to join in. We did not join it in the past and we shall not join it in the future.
Helen Jackson: Having made the courageous decision after Weston Park to advocate that young Catholics join
the PSNI, has my hon. Friend found that they have suffered harassment in his constituency as a result of that advice?
Mr. Mallon: The hon. Lady's question is valid but, unfortunately, I cannot answer it. Nobody can, but we all know of the presence and intimidation in both communities that is not voiced, does not involve any action and cannot be traced—but it is there. Interestingly and sadly, the same problem is experienced in both communities. How did some of the people whom we have seen on television in the past few weeks make millions dealing in drugs and prostitution when everyone knew that that was happening? Was anybody giving that information to the police? Was anybody in the Shankill road, where those poor people were caught, providing information? They did not do so, because they were dead men and women the next morning if they did. We must ensure that people such as the hon. Lady and me support young people who join the police and their families—that is the heart of the matter. We must make it clear in our communities that we will not allow people to be bullied out of the career that they choose.
Governments need to get the legislative arrangements for policing right, but the onus is on us to get the implementation right. Patten made that clear—legislation could only do so much; the rest would have to be done through the Policing Board. I pay tribute to the members of the Policing Board and the remarkable way in which they have conducted their duties since its formation. I include all members of the board in that tribute; at a time when political processes and Administrations were falling, and when north-south bodies and power-sharing Executives were being suspended, the Policing Board was taking the pressure, and it was a revelation that it was able to keep going. I should like to place on the record that that is my view—I appreciate the efforts that those people made.
I look forward to the day when Patten's vision is fully realised. We are in the second year of a lengthy programme. If we are reduced to looking at things in terms of Catholic and Protestant or focus on the inevitably niggly aspects of legislation we tend to lose sight of the larger vision. I am still convinced that, on the basis of the wishes of people in the north of Ireland of all political persuasions and of all religions, we can achieve the protection of our communities and the betterment of society through good proper policing. We all face that challenge now, but some of the challenges that we have faced in the past are behind us. Many people have helped to make that possible. As the Bill goes through Parliament, we must realise that the more we get the legislation right, the easier it will be for people to get its implementation right.
I welcome the opportunity to say again what I believe about policing. With regard to what was said earlier, this is probably the last time that I shall speak on the Floor of the House about policing—at least, I hope this is the last time I speak on the Floor of the House about policing. If we get the Bill right, as we will, we will provide the foundations for the political institutions to be sustained and for the rest of the political developments to progress.
Let us not waste any more years. Let us not waste any more legislative opportunities. Let us take those opportunities and make policing work in its totality.
Yes, there are political and practical implications, and implications in terms of religious denominations. I wish those implications did not exist, but they do. That is the reality. But if we get our end of things right, we can help to make sure that other people will do the same.5.41 pm
Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland): It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh (Mr. Mallon), who made a thoughtful and well-considered contribution to the debate. I found a great deal of wisdom in what he said. I am acutely aware that on matters relating to Northern Ireland, I do not come close to the pedigree of the hon. Gentleman or hon. Members on the Unionist Benches. Listening to the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh, I feel ever so slightly humbled.
Liberal Democrats are pleased to give the Bill a broad welcome. It comes to us having already been in the other place, so we have the advantage that much of Government thinking is already on record. As regards drafting, the Bill comes to us in much better shape than is often the case with Bills that start their life with Second Readings in this place.
The coincidence of timing—the debate comes in the wake of events in the Shankill last week—gives our discussions of policing a potency that they might not otherwise have had. The importance of policing in the process of normalisation cannot be overestimated. A further indication of that is the fact that, as has been mentioned, the Bill comes fairly hot on the heels of the 2000 Act.
Reading press reports last week as the two factions of the Ulster Defence Association fought it out in the streets of the Shankill, I was struck by the fact that the apparently victorious faction went on record as saying that the drug-dealing scum were all gone. The fact that that man said that at that time and in that way shows the distance that we still have to go in relation to the normalisation of policing. Two thoughts immediately spring to my mind when I hear such things. First, I would require a great deal of persuasion that those who were doing the chasing out were any better than those being chased out. Secondly, it is surely fundamental in any democracy that if drug-dealing scum or any other sort of scum are to be removed from the streets, those who remove them must be in the police force. What we saw last week suggests that we are a great distance away from that.
I was pleased to hear much of what the Secretary of State said. I was curious when he referred to the disclosure offence in clause 20. Subsection (7) of proposed new section 74A of the Policing (Northern Ireland) Act 2000 states that the offence will be
- "liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale."
The Secretary of State referred to the tremendous progress that has been made by the Policing Board since its inception, as did the hon. Member for Newry and Armagh. I do not intend to rehearse those remarks, but I point out that the appointment of the new Chief Constable and the new badge and flag for the police stand in the board's credit column. Some of the clauses represent a strengthening of the Policing Board's role and give it more flexibility, which may bring it more into line with what Patten envisaged.
In particular, the Liberal Democrats welcome the requirement for the Secretary of State to consult the Policing Board and the Chief Constable before introducing new objectives or codes of practice or altering the existing ones. The extension of an explicit obligation on the Secretary of State to undertake that consultation with the board with a view to reaching agreement seems to us an eminently sensible provision that does not diminish his powers to determine or revise long-term policing objectives if he fails to reach such agreement with the board. The Liberal Democrats have always supported a strong Policing Board, which we hope will bring policing closer to the community and the community closer to the police.
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