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10 Feb 2003 : Column 743—continued
10.29 pm
The Minister for the Environment (Mr. Michael Meacher): I commend my hon. Friend the Member for South Derbyshire (Mr. Todd) on his case, on what is a serious issue. The management of waste generated by illegal camping is a problem in many parts of the country and I am aware of the arguments—which are genuinely made—that the Environment Agency does not pay sufficient attention to that. I hope that I can explain that that is not the case, but I am the first to admit that more resolute and determined action is needed. We need more joined-up activity between the agency, local authorities and Departments, including my own.
I also commend my hon. Friend because this is not the first occasion on which he has raised the issue. He has requested other Adjournment debates, initiated at least one private Member's Bill and, I believe, is currently promoting another Bill.
The key to the problem is the fly-tipping protocol that has been drawn up by the Local Government Association and the Environment Agency. Under that protocol, local authorities deal with the fly tipping of household waste and small commercial and industrial waste, which forms the bulk of waste fly-tipped by illegal campers. Therefore in most circumstances, it is for the local authority to act. The protocol allows the Environment Agency to concentrate on the fly tipping of hazardous waste and serious environmental crime. Given the limitations of resources and personnel, that is probably a sensible division. The agency also, however, sometimes carries out joint surveillance and enforcement operations with local authorities.
My hon. Friend mentioned the case involving the site by the A50/M1 junction in Leicestershire, in which the offender was subsequently prosecuted and fined. The case raises several issues and I shall return to it before I finish.
The Government acknowledge that gypsies and travellers have a right to pursue a nomadic lifestyle—nothing that my hon. Friend said suggested otherwise—and many live peaceably next to their settled neighbours. However, the right of gypsies and travellers to enjoy that lifestyle has to be reconciled with the right of the settled community to enjoy theirs. Both communities need to understand their responsibilities as well as their rights. That is the theory: it is the application that can be a problem.
Some traveller groups camp illegally, which can attract levels of nuisance and distress to the settled community. As my hon. Friend said, the typical consequences can range from unacceptable behaviour, lack of respect—to put it mildly—for other people's property, and the costs of removing rubbish.
Fly tipping unquestionably blights our towns and countryside. It is an antisocial activity, whoever is responsible for it and wherever it comes from. Contrary to the view held by many people, there are stringent controls in place to ensure that waste is managed properly. Illegal waste disposal is a criminal offence. Those caught and found guilty of it can receive penalties of up to five years' imprisonment or an unlimited fine. One of the main problems is getting the magistrates courts to recognise the seriousness of the offences and to apply the necessary penalties to act as a genuine deterrent.
When waste is deposited illegally, local authorities and the Environment Agency have the powers to remove it and dispose of it properly, under section 59 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990. My hon. Friend argued tonight, as he has on previous occasions, that those powers are too seldom used. However, it is not the responsibility of the Government to decide how local authorities and the Environment Agency should use the powers that are available to them. I encourage them to take strong enforcement action and to prosecute the perpetrators of such crimes wherever possible. My hon. Friend well articulated the feeling of local people that where powers are available, they are insufficiently used. Both the local authority and the Environment Agency have additional powers to bring prosecutions for the illegal disposal of waste and for breach of the duty of care requirements.
Everyone realises that fly tipping is a tricky issue. The main difficulty is to prevent waste being from being fly-tipped in the first place, and then to catch the culprits. The main problem is not the level of penalty but the perception of the likelihood of apprehension. However, the Government are serious about tackling the growing problem of fly tipping, and we are considering whether to amend legislation to extend the range of powers available both to local authorities and to the agency.
I recently visited the fly tipping forum—I understand that it has been given a new name—which develops policies to try to prevent fly tipping. I was struck by the determination of the group of experts associated with the Environment Agency to investigate all means of trying to apprehend fly tippers. Some of those ideas were innovative and I look forward to receiving a report on how to develop them.
We have already amended the Environmental Protection (Duty of Care) Regulations 1991 to give local authorities powers to inspect the duty of care records kept by businesses. Sometimes, former traveller encampments can become subject to further fly tipping, of business waste. The amendment will help local authorities to investigate fly tipping incidents and to prevent fly tipping from taking place. The power comes into effect on 20 February.
The Environment Agency is establishing a central unit to co-ordinate its approach to environmental crime. I am pleased that both the chairman and the chief executive of the agency are determined to crack down much harder on environmental crime—as am I.
Mr. Todd: Will my right hon. Friend take a look at the experience in Wales where the Environment Agency has
set aside a budget for the pursuit of fly tipping and for research into it? Apparently, that is not mirrored in the English Environment Agency.
Mr. Meacher: I am well aware of that. My understanding is that the Welsh unit has been strikingly successful. It is a model that the Environment Agency wants to follow in other parts of the country. I strongly encourage that.
We are also considering further ideas for tackling fly tipping, including those mentioned in the consultation paper that we issued recently, entitled, "Living Places—Powers, Rights, Responsibilities". The consultation period is due to close on 14 February. We shall certainly follow up closely the observations of consultees. We are determined to pursue these matters thoroughly.
We are aware of the agency's desire for powers of arrest for fly tipping, and for other changes to legislation, which is an appropriate point to refer to the case in Leicestershire to which my hon. Friend drew our attention. In December last year, officers from the Environment Agency and officers from the Leicestershire constabulary discussed a strategy for dealing with illegal tipping by itinerants in the vicinity of the A50/M1 intersection.
On 13 January this year, the Environment Agency was contacted by Leicestershire police to confirm that their officers had witnessed about 3 tonnes of soil being deposited among the other waste at the site. The offender was unable to respond satisfactorily to accusations of illegal tipping lodged by the police, and they were able to arrest him under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. An Environment Agency officer assisted the police in interviewing the offender and provided the police with specimen charges. The offender was subsequently bailed to appear at a later date to answer to the charges lodged against him.
The offender, who is apparently known to the police under several aliases, appeared at Loughborough magistrates court and pleaded guilty to one charge of depositing waste without the benefit of a waste management licence, contrary, as my hon. Friend said, to section 33 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990. He was fined £250 and ordered to pay £65 costs. I think that that is derisory.
We should learn from the issues that the case has raised. The Environment Agency has said that, without police assistance, it is unlikely that it would have been able to take any action against the man. The problem facing the agency is that, without the power of arrest, many itinerants can give false names and addresses. Many of their vehicles are not registered with the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency, and many itinerants have no fixed abode.
The agency gathers evidence, produces charges and then serves court summonses on offenders. Without correct names or addresses, the summonses never reach offenders. The police have powers under PACE to arrest
individuals on the spot if they are not satisfied with the information that they are given. They also have access to identification tools, such as fingerprinting and DNA. We need to learn the lessons about the Environment Agency's capacity to act effectively, given that it does not have powers of arrest.The police in Leicestershire are very keen to make progress on joint working with the local agency office and are attending a joint seminar on seizing vehicles involved in illegal waste activities. That is exactly the kind of co-operation that we need.
Mr. Todd: I thank my right hon. Friend for giving way again. He highlights the core of the issue—the co-operation currently possible under the law between the Environment Agency and the police—but is he not concerned, as I was, about the very thin knowledge of environmental crime that the police often have and the difficulty of achieving co-working, perhaps without clearer direction from the Home Office? Will he perhaps discuss this matter with colleagues in the Home Office?
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