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25 Feb 2003 : Column 164—continued
Mr. Greenway: Local sport constitutes a good illustration of the Minister's case. I am sure that he would not want to miss local commentary on Pontypridd.
Dr. Howells: Pontypridd is a great place.
John Robertson: I have never heard of it. I understand my hon. Friend's point about music, but his argument could apply to politics and news. Why include those subjects in the Bill? Why not simply refer to "programmes"? We believed that the definition should include news and politics. I believe that music should also be included. "Music" covers an enormous range. It could not be interpreted to exclude something
because it encompasses so much. I implore my hon. Friend to reconsider and include the word "music" somewhere in the Bill.
Dr. Howells: I understand my hon. Friend's point. However, I am not convinced that music should be included and I am wary of over-prescription. There is no need to specify music, although I support the sentiment behind my hon. Friend's amendments. I repeat my hope and expectation that Ofcom will consider music to be an important element of local material.
I hope that hon. Members will not press their amendments.
Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.
New Clause 4
Investigation of the BBC by the National Audit Office
'( ) In Part 2 of Schedule 4 to the National Audit Office Act 1983 (c. 44), the words "the British Broadcasting Corporation" shall be omitted.'—[Mr. Leigh.]
Brought up, and read the First time.
Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough): I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: New clause 6—BBC research on television licensing—
'It shall be the duty of the BBC annually to commission and publish independent research into the efficacy, cost effectiveness and public acceptability of television licensing in the United Kingdom subject to such conditions and restrictions as the Secretary of State may by direction require.'.
New clause 7—OFCOM research on television licensing—
'It shall be the duty of OFCOM annually to commission and publish independent research into the efficacy, cost effectiveness and public acceptability of television licensing in the United Kingdom subject to such conditions and restrictions as the Secretary of State may by direction require.'.
New clause 8—Preserved rights in respect of certain concessionary television licence fees—
'(1) Part 1 of Schedule 2 to the Wireless Telegraphy (Television Licence Fees) Regulations 1997 (S.I. 1997/290) shall be amended as follows.
(2) After entry 5 in column 1 (type of licence), there shall be inserted—
"Television licence (including colour) (Accommodation for Residential Care (preserved rights))."
(3) After entry 5 in column 2 (description of licence), there shall be inserted—
"A licence to install and use television receivers at such parts of accommodation which, in whole or in part, previously met the requirements specified in entry 5 in this column, where the resident of a unit of accommodation was resident in that accommodation at the time that the accommodation or part of that accommodation met the requirements specified in entry 5 in column 2 and was paying the issue fee specified in entry 5 in column 3."
(4) After entry 5 in column 3 (issue fee), there shall be inserted—
"£5 for each unit of accommodation occupied by a resident, as defined in Part II of this Schedule, meeting the requirements specified in column 2.".'.
New clause 9—Public services fund—
'(1) The Secretary of State shall by order make provision for the establishment of a fund to be known as the Public Services Broadcasting Fund.
(2) There shall be at least 3 trustees of the Fund and the order shall make provision for the terms of their appointment, including their remuneration.
(3) The primary function of the Trustees shall be the making of financial contributions to groups or organisations which make or propose to make programmes of local, regional or sectional interest for inclusion in a programme service.
(4) The Trustees shall have such other powers as may be conferred on them by the order.
(5) The BBC shall pay to the Trustees for the Fund in January of each calendar year in accordance with the provisions of the order made under subsection (1) an amount equal to 1 per cent. of the licence fee received by the BBC in the preceding calendar year.
(6) The Secretary of State may by order vary the percentage for the time being specified in subsection (5).
(7) An order under this section shall not be made unless a draft of the order has been laid before Parliament and approved by a resolution of each House.'.
Mr. Leigh: The purpose of the new clause is to enable the Comptroller and Auditor General to enjoy full value-for-money access rights to the BBC and thus to open it up to exactly the same scrutiny on Parliament's behalf as all other bodies that are funded by tax.
I stress from the outset that we are not considering a party-political issue. There is total consensus among members of the Public Accounts Committee, on which I serve, and in both Houses that the BBC's position outside the Comptroller and Auditor General's remit is a matter for concern.
The new clause is supported by the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field), the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Rendel), who is in his place, my hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk (Mr. Bacon), the right hon. Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams), who is Chairman of the Liaison Committee and one of the most senior Members of the House, the hon. Member for Croydon, Central (Geraint Davies), who is in his place, the hon. Member for City of Durham (Mr. Steinberg), my hon. Friends the Members for Fareham (Mr. Hoban), and for Tatton (Mr. Osborne), the hon. Member for Tamworth (Mr. Jenkins), my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon and East Chelmsford (Mr. Whittingdale) and the hon. Member for Knowsley, North and Sefton, East (Mr. Howarth).
Mr. Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield): A fine body of men.
Mr. Leigh: Indeed. Those names show that there is consensus, at least on the Public Accounts Committee. Like many hon. Members, I believe that the BBC should be in the same position as other public bodies.
Mr. John Bercow (Buckingham): Is the new clause confined solely to the audit of financial management in the BBC or would its purview extend to considering
whether the BBC had honoured its obligations to observe due impartiality in matters of political and industrial controversy?
Mr. Leigh: I am grateful that my hon. Friend, with his usual perspicacity, has moved to the central argument. Let me make it clear straight away that there is no intention to undermine, affect or question the BBC's editorial independence through the new clause.
3.15 pm
We all acknowledge that although we may tear our hair out about various aspects of programmes that we personally dislike, including political views with which we disagree and interviews on "Today", the new clause has nothing to do with that. I assure my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Mr. Bercow) that the Comptroller and Auditor General, who is an officer of the House, is uninterested in what happens in programmes. He simply wants to subject the BBC to the same financial scrutiny as everyone else.
We are considering £2.5 billion of taxpayers' money, which is raised through a compulsory licence fee. Let us be honest: it is effectively a poll tax on the majority of people in the country. It is no longer sustainable to keep that large sum beyond our scrutiny. I believe that the Minister privately acknowledges that, that his civil servants recognise it and that many people in the BBC accept it. Even the current chairman of the BBC publicly acknowledged that before he took up his current position. Whatever the Minister's negotiating position, I believe that everybody realises that the time is right for the BBC to come under Parliament's scrutiny.
For those who are not familiar with the system, the Comptroller and Auditor General audits central Government and the bodies that they fund. I am delighted that the Government have made progress. They are in the process of correcting past anomalies—for example, the Comptroller and Auditor General was not allowed to scrutinise some non-departmental public bodies or Government-owned companies. I bend over backwards not to be party political when I speak on behalf of the Public Accounts Committee. I therefore pay tribute to the Government for their tremendous progress.
However, the position on the BBC is much less clear. The Comptroller and Auditor General has only limited rights of access, which are far short of what is necessary. He can examine the arrangements for collecting the television licence fee and the use that the BBC makes of the grant from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to support the World Service. Those are only two small aspects of the enormous empire that constitutes the BBC. He cannot examine or report to Parliament on the bulk of the BBC's spending, which amounts to £2.5 billion. That is wrong. I want to convince the Minister that we must right the wrong now.
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